Opponent bets small - I have a semi-marginal hand.

[Barfunkel]

This is a situation that is very common at lower stakes, at least up to NL200:

You have an ok but not great hand (say, top pair with a weak kicker or a highish second pair). Opponent bets to you. Normally you either raise or fold, depending on the situation.

But, at lower stakes many opponents don't bet pot or even half the pot. They often make minbets or other small bets, like 1/3 of the pot.

These opponents are, of course, extremely profitable and often very loose so their range can be anything from monster to air (minbet-bluffs against 2 opponents aren't that rare ...).

The question is, is there a reason to raise in such a situation or should I generally just call? If someone bets 1/3 of the pot I definately win against their range more than 1/5 of the time so I at least a call is EV+ but is there a real reason to raise? If I get a call I'm probably in trouble and I don't want to play a big pot with a marginal hand that, if behind, has only a few outs, if any.

Shortly, I have a hand that has good showdown value against opponent's range, pot is small, bets are small, I can probably get a cheap showdown unless the opponents goes crazy on later streets. Why raise?

Or am I just defending weak-tight play here?

[AaronBrown]

You always need a reason to call, if you're uncertain, raise or fold.

You have given one of the two good reasons to call. You think you're behind, so every new dollar you put in the pot is -EV. But there is enough money already in the pot to make calling +EV.

However, there is another key assumption, that the other player is bad. In that case, there's no point in being deceptive, and little risk you'll get in a bad situation later. So go ahead and call to see what happens.

If the entire game is bad (and if this is a live cash game) another reason to call is to encourage bad play from everyone. There's no easier money in the world than playing all night with people who make small bets and call big ones. You don't mind losing most of the pots, and you're giving the other players action and the fun of winning pots with their good hands. You get money, they get entertainment. Everyone's happy. If you start folding to small bets so they don't get to enjoy their good hands, and making big raises so they have to make tough decisions, you'll teach them better poker or drive them away.

With a good player, it's a different situation (although a good player will seldom make a pointless raise, one that's too small to make it +EV for any hand to fold; if one does, it's a mind game, not a strategy). By calling the mini-raise you learn nothing about the other hand, and by calling it with a marginal hand, you describe your hand. With a good player, that almost certainly two bad ideas. That doesn't mean you never call, just that you make sure you mix up your play. Given that there's not much EV here anyway, it's a good hand to play strategically rather than for EV.

[PantsOnFire]

The first goal is to learn what those small bets mean. They could mean value bets with TP. They could mean scared bets. They could mean monsters suckering you in. This is all assuming either a bad player or a straightforward player. Against a good, tricky player, they will mean different things so I would just avoid those players.

Once you figure out what they mean, you can react appropriately. However, also keep track of how they react back.

Just the other day I had a gutshot on the flop. It was a multiway raised pot and I called late with JTs. The raiser min bet and two players called and I was getting about 15:1 pot odds so I called. The same min bet occurred on the turn and I called again. I hit the gutshot on the river. The original raiser paid me off with AA. So in that case, if I had raised, AA would certainly have called and might have even gone in. Anyways, I never would have hit since I would have been out of the hand.

Other hands I play differently. Having TPWK is not a good situation if you are up against a better kicker. In this case I will usually raise hoping that villain has a pp lower than TP or otherwise has not much. The reason I will raise here is I don't want to call with 3 outs to pair my kicker. If I have second pair, I actually like this hand better. Now, I usually have five outs so a small bet might give me the right odds. And if the board is dry, I might also like my implied odds if villain has TP.

Also I might chase backdoor draws if I have even bottom pair which could give me extra outs. I calculate how many turn cards would be really nice and go from there.

The other thing is that a min bet on the flop followed by a check on the turn usually indicates severe weakness. So sometimes calling a small flop bet might be good just for the chance of taking the pot away on the turn.

Finally, if the pot starts small and you call one or two small bets and get to the river cheap for a fairly small pot, even if you lose that pot (assume you are deep here), you can get some great information about villain and see what cards he had and why he min bet.

[DarkMagus]

[ QUOTE ]
The first goal is to learn what those small bets mean. They could mean value bets with TP. They could mean scared bets. They could mean monsters suckering you in. This is all assuming either a bad player or a straightforward player. Against a good, tricky player, they will mean different things so I would just avoid those players.

Once you figure out what they mean, you can react appropriately. However, also keep track of how they react back.

Just the other day I had a gutshot on the flop. It was a multiway raised pot and I called late with JTs. The raiser min bet and two players called and I was getting about 15:1 pot odds so I called. The same min bet occurred on the turn and I called again. I hit the gutshot on the river. The original raiser paid me off with AA. So in that case, if I had raised, AA would certainly have called and might have even gone in. Anyways, I never would have hit since I would have been out of the hand.

Other hands I play differently. Having TPWK is not a good situation if you are up against a better kicker. In this case I will usually raise hoping that villain has a pp lower than TP or otherwise has not much. The reason I will raise here is I don't want to call with 3 outs to pair my kicker. If I have second pair, I actually like this hand better. Now, I usually have five outs so a small bet might give me the right odds. And if the board is dry, I might also like my implied odds if villain has TP.

Also I might chase backdoor draws if I have even bottom pair which could give me extra outs. I calculate how many turn cards would be really nice and go from there.

The other thing is that a min bet on the flop followed by a check on the turn usually indicates severe weakness. So sometimes calling a small flop bet might be good just for the chance of taking the pot away on the turn.

Finally, if the pot starts small and you call one or two small bets and get to the river cheap for a fairly small pot, even if you lose that pot (assume you are deep here), you can get some great information about villain and see what cards he had and why he min bet.

[/ QUOTE ]



I don't really think I agree with most of your points. First of all, from most players, a minbet doesn't mean anything. I think that a lot of players hear, "you have to mix up your play" and then they look at minbetting on 50% of the flops they see (and these players usually see a lot of flops) as a way to mix it up. With some players, you may be able to pick up a pattern, but IMO, with the majority of chronic minbetters, their minbets just don't have much meaning. And to be honest, against weak-tight players who panic anytime anything non-standard happens, it may not even be that awful of a strategy (though there are certainly much better strategies).

I think it's silly to think that you must raise or fold with a hand like TPWK. I often just call them down like you would in limit. There's no sense in blowing him out of the pot if he's got nothing, when you could instead control the pot with a call and maybe keep him minbetting with his 3rd pair or whatever. By raising you risk too much for not enough gain, IMO. If he's got a big hand, he's probably going to fire a big bet later on when he realizes that he got so caught up in his fancy play that he forgot to build the pot. Then you can make your decision there, and for a lot less chips than if you raised earlier in the hand.

I do agree though that you can chase a lot of weak draws, but remember to have half-decent pot odds, because a lot of times he'll have nothing and you won't get much implied odds.

[PantsOnFire]

[ QUOTE ]
First of all, from most players, a minbet doesn't mean anything. I think that a lot of players hear, "you have to mix up your play" and then they look at minbetting on 50% of the flops they see (and these players usually see a lot of flops) as a way to mix it up. With some players, you may be able to pick up a pattern, but IMO, with the majority of chronic minbetters, their minbets just don't have much meaning. And to be honest, against weak-tight players who panic anytime anything non-standard happens, it may not even be that awful of a strategy (though there are certainly much better strategies).

I think it's silly to think that you must raise or fold with a hand like TPWK. I often just call them down like you would in limit. There's no sense in blowing him out of the pot if he's got nothing, when you could instead control the pot with a call and maybe keep him minbetting with his 3rd pair or whatever. By raising you risk too much for not enough gain, IMO. If he's got a big hand, he's probably going to fire a big bet later on when he realizes that he got so caught up in his fancy play that he forgot to build the pot. Then you can make your decision there, and for a lot less chips than if you raised earlier in the hand.

I do agree though that you can chase a lot of weak draws, but remember to have half-decent pot odds, because a lot of times he'll have nothing and you won't get much implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]
While a bad player's min bet may not mean anything specific, it usually means something in general. Unless a player is so bad he is just playing randomly, usually players have patterns, especially ones that are novices with a few hands under their belt.

As far as raising with TPWK, consider this. Villain min bets with second pair and you call. You are effectively betting the best hand with a min bet yourself giving villain odds to try to improve his second pair. If he re-raises, you can be sure you are beat and if he calls, you need to figure out how loose he is. That's the time I might be for a cheap showdown. Remember who we're dealing with here.

Finally, if you have a weak draw like a gutshot and villain has nothing, then you can either take the pot away or pairing one of your hole cards may give you the best hand. So if you have good high cards (like you should as a tight player) then you can sometimes have up to 10 outs and don't need implied odds.