Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question

[suzzer99]

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I just really cant comprehend why people want to pick up the slack for the poor/fat/unhealthy/etc of society, it doesnt make sense to me. You are rewarding people for making poor decisions seems very counter-intuitive to me.

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Stupid juvenile diabetics, pick a better pancreas! Morons.

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ok suzzer, no one is talking about them. i didn't even see guids mentioned diabetes. but you cannot deny the huge link between obesity and type II diabetes.

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So you're advocating some kind of health care system that takes care of juvenile diabetics but kicks type II to the curb? Or are we just saying screw both because the fatties ruin it for everyone?

[Tupacia]

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Do you know what it is called when you believe you have a "right" to that which must be produced by someone else's labor?

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A basic gut-check to see if you're a human being that is capable of empathy?

*GASP* I'd have to steal from wealthy people to ensure that the indigent have at least a faint glimmer of hope of receiving medical treatment within the decade. Do you honestly think that keeps me up at night?

There's a reason why Robin Hood is an iconic hero figure and Ebenezer Scrooge isn't.

[Emperor]

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I must admit I'm moving into the school of thought that health care is a right.

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Do you know what it is called when you believe you have a "right" to that which must be produced by someone else's labor?

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Let me guess... theft?

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I was thinking of slavery, but, six of one, half a dozen of the other.

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Do you know what it's called when you people constantly derail by threads by bringing the old SOCIALIST canards into every discussion?

Tr-l-ing

Fill in the blanks.

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FYP

[owsley]

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Do you know what it's called when you people constantly derail by threads by bringing the old libertarian canards into every discussion?

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So instead of having to refute those points, you'd rather just not let them be part of the discussion? huh?

[Emperor]

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Do you know what it is called when you believe you have a "right" to that which must be produced by someone else's labor?

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A basic gut-check to see if you're a human being that is capable of empathy?

*GASP* I'd have to steal from wealthy people to ensure that the indigent have at least a faint glimmer of hope of receiving medical treatment within the decade. Do you honestly think that keeps me up at night?

There's a reason why Robin Hood is an iconic hero figure and Ebenezer Scrooge isn't.

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Yes theives are much more popular than a philanthropists. (Scrooge gave his money away in the end LDO.)

[Tupacia]

ZOMG I'm a slave I get it. Being in the richest and most powerful country in the history of mankind totally suxorz because I have to give my money to some entity that I got to elect so they could allocate it to solve societal problems as they see fit. Instead, let's place our faith in the benevolent corporations of America as they would never lie, cheat, or deceive their shareholders. Oh wait, except they do, ALL THE TIME. We have a dedicated government agency to root out corporate malfeasance (ZOMG the SEC sucks too) and it still happens all the time. At least there's some semblance of checks and balances in our government.

Also, for those Ayn-Rand lovers in the house, what is the alternative health care system you're proposing? Just let the private market handle it and write a few cards to orphans and people unlucky enough to lose the genetic lottery?

[NickMPK]

Dammit, I knew it was just a matter of time before the AC hijackers sniffed this out.

[John Spartan]

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Do you know what it's called when you people constantly derail by threads by bringing the old libertarian canards into every discussion?

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So instead of having to refute those points, you'd rather just not let them be part of the discussion? huh?

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you CAN'T refute the points because it's an OPINION that simply will not change. If someone believes taxation is theft, nothing you can say or do will change that. Fortunately these people are a minority in the real world. Not on 2+2 obviously.

How can i refute it? You guys don't want to discuss the practical objections to universal health care, just the moral ones.

And like the previous poster said, what your position comes down to is if you don't win the genetic lottery, and are unlucky and born into a very poor family, you are [censored], and deserve no boost.

[owsley]

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Do you know what it is called when you believe you have a "right" to that which must be produced by someone else's labor?

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A basic gut-check to see if you're a human being that is capable of empathy?

*GASP* I'd have to steal from wealthy people to ensure that the indigent have at least a faint glimmer of hope of receiving medical treatment within the decade. Do you honestly think that keeps me up at night?

There's a reason why Robin Hood is an iconic hero figure and Ebenezer Scrooge isn't.

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If you take a serious look at the libertarian belief system, you will find that people believe in it because they have taken a serious look at economics and how the federal government actually works, and who it actually benefits, and they have realized that those institutions work against the poor. High taxes that supposedly go to education/whatever, the minimum wage, all those things hurt poor people. I am not a libertarian for greedy reasons, I am one because I think everyone in society would be better off with less government influence.

As for what would happen to orphans or "people who lost the genetic lottery", there is no reason that altruism or charity would not exist in a libertarian society. Absolutely none. If I didn't have to pay the government so much in taxes to pay for wars, 50,000 nuclear warheads, pork spending, etc, I would give a lot more to charity. And when individuals give money to charity, they can discriminate between the ones which will spend the money efficiently and the ones that don't. Under our system, it all goes to the government no matter what you think about it and there is no recourse against them wasting it all.

[Tupacia]

The 2+2 genus of libertarian is the least persuasive I've encountered. If you want to convert people to your line of thinking, the "taxes=slavery" arg ain't gonna do it.

Instead, say things like the "free market can solve the healthcare crisis by X,Y, and Z" and "in the past, government intervention into health care has produced (insert negative event here). This is pretty basic persuasion 101 here folks.

Talk about the free-market proposals to alleviate the health care crisis and stop derailing/hijacking/trolling this thread.