Badugi Defense

[karpov]

How do you defend agaist this standard play. Player in position open raise, you call in one of the blinds with A2 or A3 and draw 2. Raiser draw one. You catch a 7 or 8 and next roud he stays pat. You don't know if he made a Badugi or not and you don't have pot odds to draw in case he has it. What do you do?

[HOWMANY]

The way the question is asked I feel like the only answers are either fold or c/r pat bluff. I'd say more but I've never played Badugi, so if I try to go into detail I'm sure I'll make some wildly wrong claims.

[DeathDonkey]

Catching a 7 or an 8 doesn't really do much for your hand. The copout answer is unfortunately the correct one: it depends. If he is not bluffing and is always pat (even if pat very rough) just fold. If he will snow here then mix it up between folding, calling and drawing one and checkraising the next street, and checkraising now (I like the second option better than this one). If he stands pat behind you you are getting called down though.

-DeathDonkey

[Nomar]

all this resnowing i think is a little bit speweeeey, and should be used occasionally oppesed to as the norm ...

it is true you dont have odds to draw at badugi, but if you think hes the type thats snowing 30% of the time all you to do is call and draw, then call again on the river unimproved with your 73A or 72A

in my limited personal experience (50-100hrs live) they will check this river and show there rough badagi more than you think

[DeathDonkey]

Hey Nomar,

I definitely didn't mean that we should fold, checkraise, and check/call CR with equal frequency, that's a huge spew I agree. Yes I think you could make an argument for check/calling twice unimproved but I don't want to take a stand with a hand like 72A for that I don't think, its too weak. Maybe though its ok because if he has 72A beat he would just draw instead of snow? I agree with your experience that they will check the river and show you a weak badugi, but that leads to the conclusion that we should simply fold, right?

-DeathDonkey

[Nomar]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with your experience that they will check the river and show you a weak badugi, but that leads to the conclusion that we should simply fold, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, that was what I was trying to say. Badagi is frustrating as hell sometimes, and when you cant win a pot you think they are snowing you over and over again, BUT they arent. They just dont snow that much. I am not sure about the biggest games (I have played 3-6 once and normally 1-2 or 2-4) maybe the biggest games have more posturing/ snowing, but generally they have a hand and you should fold.

There are the opponents who do snow more, and like DD said they are not snowing with ABC or anything close so your A, 2/3, 7 is good enough to take to showdown vs there snow range.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]

it is true you dont have odds to draw at badugi,

[/ QUOTE ]

With a 2 card draw the hero is 3.3:1 against hitting a 6 outer, he is getting the right odds to call assuming A28x will win when x catches good and lower than an 8.

The real topic of discussion therefore becomes discounting outs.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[2461Badugi]

[ QUOTE ]

With a 2 card draw the hero is 3.3:1 against hitting a 6 outer

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really, really wrong. I have no idea how you managed to come up with this number.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

With a 2 card draw the hero is 3.3:1 against hitting a 6 outer

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really, really wrong. I have no idea how you managed to come up with this number.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hire a mathematician in preparation for an article (which still hasn't been written - I'm a lazy boy!), spend a week working on the correct draws, and then lay it on 2+2 when the time is right. You may think its wrong now, but soon enough the truth will be revealed - I've said before the current methodology of calculating draws in TD and Badugi is flawed, more to be revealed over time.

I'd like to add that 3.3:1 is the odds of hitting (and not guaranteeing the winner) by the river a one card draw w/6 outs, without duplication, with two draws remaining (for example A248 badugi). Problem is the hero doesn't have the implied odds to continue after the second draw (he is now getting 3:1) and the odds of improving to an 8 high badugi with one draw remaining is now 7:1. As I previously mentioned the real discussion needs to be how to determine where to discount outs, as we can never assume all 6 outs are winners.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[2461Badugi]

Um, TT? How many outs does A28 have?

If you're making early-street decisions based on your odds to make the hand by the river, you're making huge mistakes. This is basic poker theory stuff.