50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn... - Page 2

xxrod17xx · #11 10-12-2007, 11:51 PM

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Results do not matter, but he did indeed have AK. That's why I think him hitting A/K gets him stacked as well...thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ] you played it fine. Anybody saying otherwise is being totally result oriented. If I lead the flop this is exactly how you should play it.

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I think this is being a little silly...

I clearly thought through the hand and his possible holdings and I felt the best play would be to lead the turn for value/charging to see a river card.

I don't mind the flop play, but I think calling a min raise on the flop like that I would feel that I have to lead the turn with the flopped nuts.

ranka · #12 10-12-2007, 11:53 PM

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Results do not matter, but he did indeed have AK. That's why I think him hitting A/K gets him stacked as well...thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ] you played it fine. Anybody saying otherwise is being totally result oriented. If I lead the flop this is exactly how you should play it.

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Result oriented? Please explain me why you would lead this dry flop? We force to fold AK correctly, also overpairs may take "defensive" line and to switch check-call mode.

I think the checking is better. We extract little more money from Ax, let him CBET.

And the flop lead is too small IMO.

xxrod17xx · #13 10-12-2007, 11:57 PM

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Really? bet the turn? I never thought of bet/call on the flop then open again on the turn. Whats my motivation?

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You made a very weak flop lead. I hate it. Villain is confused with a pair of queens and he just minraises to test your hand. You called and checked the turn. Villain is still confused, scared that you may check-raise him and he check behind you. And miracle card - queen came. You bet and villain shoved. Without queen he may just fold or call. I know it is very result oriented thinking but my point is as Xrod17 said: "I think you made it clear that you had a hand"

It means villain knows that you have a good hand and he dont pay you off without REAL hand and thats why you have to bet the turn to not give free chance to outdraw you. If he fold, so it be. He fold on the river too without real hand. But difference is - you dont give him free chance to get his miracle card on the river, what cuts your throat off.

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Thanks for the quick thoughtful responses guys.

Here is the immediate, raw, unprocessed response that came after reading this:
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well the chance of him hitting an ace or king on the turn or the river is probably 100 times higher than catching runner runner jq.
and if he hit his a or k, he will probably call my all in bet or reraise all in
(considering his loose play on teh flop)
and i'll get paid off nicely
so i think my play is def a +ev play in the long run

Xrod17 said: "I think you made it clear that you had a hand"
how is it clear
its a non drawy board, yeah, but it was raised preflop
i can do that with two over cards, aj
and i think it'd be stupid not to call his minraise
cause it was his min raise
i get great pot odds
and also my check.. it can be seen as i'm scared of him
well two overs raise???
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Results do not matter, but he did indeed have AK. That's why I think him hitting A/K gets him stacked as well...thoughts?

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What odds? Stacks are not deep enough for serious implied odds cosiderations. I have 0 problem with calling the min raise, but its not that different from 3 betting on the flop on such a dry board. I simply would lead this turn to get value from AA KK 1010 and if he turned a set of Q's so be it. I was never in the market for giving free cards, I dont check the turn for deception or pot control typically (probably a leak of sorts), but I def thing a close to pot sized lead on the turn for value is your best play.

onehandfold · #14 10-13-2007, 12:02 AM

My goals on each street:

trying to buy the pot
call because of the pot odds
then a weak check
check on the turn is a good trapping move
inducing bluff

of course trapping is not the only purpose of checking
either i trap him, and get him a free card so he can bet the river

in this case, i was just unfortunate that he got 2 miracle cards

xxrod17xx · #15 10-13-2007, 12:08 AM

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My goals on each street:

trying to buy the pot
call because of the pot odds
then a weak check
check on the turn is a good trapping move
inducing bluff

of course trapping is not the only purpose of checking
either i trap him, and get him a free card so he can bet the river

in this case, i was just unfortunate that he got 2 miracle cards

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If he has a hand there is no sense in trapping here IMO. If you bet he raises and you call his AI on the turn you most likely got max value for your set + charged him for his river card. If you check you will get the same result if he has a hand (most of the time I would say like 90%) and if he doesnt and has outs against you hes getting to see them free. This is a spot where you arent trapping anything I dont think. IDK if I am missing something here, but I think betting the turn is the way to go.

onehandfold · #16 10-13-2007, 12:10 AM

So this one I decided to be more aggressive on the turn. Thoguhts? Trends you can sense?

Full Tilt Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

saw flop|saw showdown

MP1 ($81.80)
MP2 ($69.35)
CO ($116.20)
Button ($32.25)
SB ($49.50)
BB ($49.75)
Hero ($51.50)
UTG+1 ($68.35)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero calls $0.50, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.50, 2 folds, Button calls $0.50, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: ($2.25) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets $2.25, Button folds, BB folds, Hero calls $2.25.

Turn: ($6.75) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $4, MP1 raises to $12, Hero raises to $48.75 (All-In), MP1 calls $36.75.

River: ($104.25) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)
.

Final Pot: $104.25

i can make the same argument here i guess
flop a monster i can slow play
but i have a low set and obviously he has a q
because he played flop and raised me on the turn

so any pair on the board, a q, or his other card can kill me
which is a lot more outs then the jj ak hand
and although he's not sure if he's beat on the turn
he can't possibly fold qqq with k kicker
so push was the right move i think

xxrod17xx · #17 10-13-2007, 12:21 AM

No but a flop lead doesnt hurt here either. The main difference between this hand and the JJ one is the size of the pot. The pot was already inflated on the turn so the best option was a bet because the villan would likely commit with a lot of hands, but here you can argue for a flop bet to build a pot up and make sure you get it AI against a Q by the river. Other than that I dont see anything wrong here. NH!

onehandfold · #18 10-13-2007, 12:32 AM

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No but a flop lead doesnt hurt here either. The main difference between this hand and the JJ one is the size of the pot. The pot was already inflated on the turn so the best option was a bet because the villan would likely commit with a lot of hands, but here you can argue for a flop bet to build a pot up and make sure you get it AI against a Q by the river. Other than that I dont see anything wrong here. NH!

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Is there much difference in getting all the chips in on the flop or turn?

I am going to make the following assumptions:
In order to get it all in on the flop, I open, he raises, i push, he calls.
In that case, I have 33, he has JQ,KQ,AQ,QQ

versus

Check calling the flop versus the same range JQ,KQ,AQ,QQ, but now along with TT-AA.
If the turn is T-A, i probably go broke vs those hands sometimes, but I also stack the times they dont hit boats.

Chargers In 07 · #19 10-13-2007, 12:34 AM

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Results do not matter, but he did indeed have AK. That's why I think him hitting A/K gets him stacked as well...thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ] you played it fine. Anybody saying otherwise is being totally result oriented. If I lead the flop this is exactly how you should play it.

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Result oriented? Please explain me why you would lead this dry flop? We force to fold AK correctly,

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Chargers In 07 · #20 10-13-2007, 12:42 AM

33 hand isn't played well IMO. Any queen is paying you off. Build the pot by betting the flop and people won't be suspicious because people don't lead strong hands. The only time you'll get a ton of action when somebody doesn't have the queen is when somebody sucks out with a bigger set. Doesn't really matter how you play this hand if somebody has a queen.