STTF SNG->cash thread - Page 257

BHokie1 · #**2561** 11-21-2007, 11:25 AM

I think this hand will show I have no idea what I'm doing at times, either that or there's just several ways to play this hand.

The table in general (especially those left to act) limped a lot and called a lot of c-bets, I tend to be tighter with my preflop raises at these tables and limp a little more.

Preflop - very limpy table, thought it was probably to be a multiway pot and small chance anyone raises, most of the guys behind me seldom folded to a c-bet

Flop - It's just me and blinds so I try to take it down, given the tendency to call most c-bets I probably could of checked here, though ace flops seem to get more folds.

Turn.
I'm torn on building a pot with a strong draw, possible winning the pot uncontested, and checking behind and taking a free card and avoid a possible c/r.

River - I have no idea what this idiot is doing, evidently he's really a genius and saw into my soul that I have nothing, and is just teasing me with this weak lead.

I'm so tempted to pop this river.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($24.40)
SB ($21.45)
BB ($9.80)
UTG ($9.55)
UTG+1 ($10.30)
MP1 ($22.90)
Hero ($36.30)
MP3 ($26.20)
CO ($5.65)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero calls $0.25, 3 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.75) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.75, SB calls $0.75, BB calls $0.75.

Turn: ($3) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $2.5, SB calls $2.50, BB folds.

River: ($8) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $0.25,

Slim Pickens · #**2562** 11-21-2007, 11:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 is 21/15/3 over 30 hands and c-bets 100%, though not really enough sample to care. He hasn't shown me anything outstanding yet so I'd like to treat him as a typical bad TAG. Do I fail at poker?

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $113.20
UTG+1: $123.25
CO: $129.10
Hero: $150.30
SB: $210
BB: $134.95

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $3.5, CO folds, Hero calls, 2 folds.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($8.5, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets $6, Hero raises to $17, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($42.5, 2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($42.5, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets $33, Hero calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

As played, calling the river can't be right, since he called a huge flop raise.

Maybe just call flop (float or peel?) would be best and reevaluate turn and river.

Remember small hand small pots, big hand big pots... 44 is not a big hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

So do random people at nl100 smooth-call a flop raise and check the turn with what they think is the best hand? It seems like a strange way to play an overpair. The river bet doesn't look like like a blocking bet, so my thought is he's either in love with his hand or he has a very solid read that I'm dumb enough to look up his A8o with a worse hand. There's so many missed draws. Besides, I really want to see what he has.

EDIT: Plus, I'm still a 53/47 favorite over a fairly generous range of {22-AA,AJ-AK,JT,Ac*c,KQ,A9,K9,A8}.

ProPoker Tools Simulator Results

Slim Pickens · #**2563** 11-21-2007, 11:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($24.40)
SB ($21.45)
BB ($9.80)
UTG ($9.55)
UTG+1 ($10.30)
MP1 ($22.90)
Hero ($36.30)
MP3 ($26.20)
CO ($5.65)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero calls $0.25, 3 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.75) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.75, SB calls $0.75, BB calls $0.75.

Turn: ($3) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $2.5, SB calls $2.50, BB folds.

River: ($8) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $0.25,

[/ QUOTE ]

F the minbet. Raise the river as fast as you can. I think it's the price you have to pay to bet the flop and turn. If they're calling c-bets then c-betting is less of a good, but then again it's not really a c-bet since you didn't raise preflop. More like a stab...

dipstikdave · #**2564** 11-21-2007, 02:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($24.40)
SB ($21.45)
BB ($9.80)
UTG ($9.55)
UTG+1 ($10.30)
MP1 ($22.90)
Hero ($36.30)
MP3 ($26.20)
CO ($5.65)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero calls $0.25, 3 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.75) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.75, SB calls $0.75, BB calls $0.75.

Turn: ($3) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $2.5, SB calls $2.50, BB folds.

River: ($8) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $0.25,

[/ QUOTE ]

raise pf, even with your read. as played, i'd check behind the flop and take a stab on the turn. definitely raise this river to 2/3 pot or so.

ManChild · #**2565** 11-21-2007, 03:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I think this hand will show I have no idea what I'm doing at times, either that or there's just several ways to play this hand.

The table in general (especially those left to act) limped a lot and called a lot of c-bets, I tend to be tighter with my preflop raises at these tables and limp a little more.

Preflop - very limpy table, thought it was probably to be a multiway pot and small chance anyone raises, most of the guys behind me seldom folded to a c-bet

Flop - It's just me and blinds so I try to take it down, given the tendency to call most c-bets I probably could of checked here, though ace flops seem to get more folds.

Turn.
I'm torn on building a pot with a strong draw, possible winning the pot uncontested, and checking behind and taking a free card and avoid a possible c/r.

River - I have no idea what this idiot is doing, evidently he's really a genius and saw into my soul that I have nothing, and is just teasing me with this weak lead.

I'm so tempted to pop this river.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($24.40)
SB ($21.45)
BB ($9.80)
UTG ($9.55)
UTG+1 ($10.30)
MP1 ($22.90)
Hero ($36.30)
MP3 ($26.20)
CO ($5.65)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero calls $0.25, 3 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.75) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.75, SB calls $0.75, BB calls $0.75.

Turn: ($3) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $2.5, SB calls $2.50, BB folds.

River: ($8) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $0.25,

[/ QUOTE ]

when you decide to cbet a flop into 2 players who frequently call cbets, you should also be thinking about if they fold to turn bets.

microbet · #**2566** 11-21-2007, 03:39 PM

Bhokie,

There are just different ways to play the hand imho.

The dry flop with an Ace is a good flop to cbet, but against 2 loose players you certainly aren't required to. If you don't bet the flop and it checks to you on the turn it will be a very easy bet and a very likely take down.

Turn is a very good card to bet. After they call the flop you are hoping they have Aces and you hit the river with either of you pretty well hidden draws. Also, your hand is strong enough and these passive players are generally check-raising too small, so you'll be able to call most check-raises and be pretty confident stacks will go in if you hit.

SB's river bet is most likely a block. Does this mean he has a 9 or a weak Ace and can he fold either one? If you bet pot he has to fold 1/2 the time (pretty unlikely you have the best hand). Given your description of the table and players I think this is pretty close. There's a decent chance he folds a 9 on the turn and a decent chance he calls river with any Ace. He could also have a big hand, like 78 and just not known what to do on the river.

In this case I think your image might make the difference.

The thing about these spots where it's hard to decide what to do is that they are close - meaning close to neutral EV - so it's not that big a deal.

BHokie1 · #**2567** 11-21-2007, 04:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I think this hand will show I have no idea what I'm doing at times, either that or there's just several ways to play this hand.

The table in general (especially those left to act) limped a lot and called a lot of c-bets, I tend to be tighter with my preflop raises at these tables and limp a little more.

Preflop - very limpy table, thought it was probably to be a multiway pot and small chance anyone raises, most of the guys behind me seldom folded to a c-bet

Flop - It's just me and blinds so I try to take it down, given the tendency to call most c-bets I probably could of checked here, though ace flops seem to get more folds.

Turn.
I'm torn on building a pot with a strong draw, possible winning the pot uncontested, and checking behind and taking a free card and avoid a possible c/r.

River - I have no idea what this idiot is doing, evidently he's really a genius and saw into my soul that I have nothing, and is just teasing me with this weak lead.

I'm so tempted to pop this river.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($24.40)
SB ($21.45)
BB ($9.80)
UTG ($9.55)
UTG+1 ($10.30)
MP1 ($22.90)
Hero ($36.30)
MP3 ($26.20)
CO ($5.65)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero calls $0.25, 3 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.75) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.75, SB calls $0.75, BB calls $0.75.

Turn: ($3) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $2.5, SB calls $2.50, BB folds.

River: ($8) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $0.25,

[/ QUOTE ]

when you decide to cbet a flop into 2 players who frequently call cbets, you should also be thinking about if they fold to turn bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thx everyone for your replies - manchild I do look at this for who to 2 barrel and should of included it in my read. sb folded more turns than flops but still called a lot of turns about 50%, bb folded most turns (33%).

FWIW - just because I thought the results were kind of funny - sb had K6 of diamonds (flush draw on the turn), and called my 3/4 pot raise on the river.

I included him on my donklist and now look for him, now I value bet the hell out of him. Donklist at 25NL could be 2349823743917 people, but I try to only include the biggest calling stations.

BHokie1 · #**2568** 11-21-2007, 04:47 PM

This guy is new to the table, so I'm readless.

Is the Push overkill? Smaller re-raise?

Would Calling the c/r on the flop be better, and calling most turn bets if I do.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($13.25)
BB ($22.75)
UTG ($29.10)
MP1 ($8.50)
MP2 ($10.15)
CO ($13.95)
Hero ($26.30)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
4 folds, Hero raises to $1, 1 fold, BB calls $0.75.

Flop: ($2.10) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2, BB raises to $4.5, Hero raises to $25.3, BB calls $17.25 (All-In).

dipstikdave · #**2569** 11-21-2007, 05:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This guy is new to the table, so I'm readless.

Is the Push overkill? Smaller re-raise?

Would Calling the c/r on the flop be better, and calling most turn bets if I do.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($13.25)
BB ($22.75)
UTG ($29.10)
MP1 ($8.50)
MP2 ($10.15)
CO ($13.95)
Hero ($26.30)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
4 folds, Hero raises to $1, 1 fold, BB calls $0.75.

Flop: ($2.10) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2, BB raises to $4.5, Hero raises to $25.3, BB calls $17.25 (All-In).

[/ QUOTE ]

i would just call. you have position getting good pot odds and very little fe, imo.

cha59 · #**2570** 11-21-2007, 05:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This guy is new to the table, so I'm readless.

Is the Push overkill? Smaller re-raise?

Would Calling the c/r on the flop be better, and calling most turn bets if I do.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($13.25)
BB ($22.75)
UTG ($29.10)
MP1 ($8.50)
MP2 ($10.15)
CO ($13.95)
Hero ($26.30)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
4 folds, Hero raises to $1, 1 fold, BB calls $0.75.

Flop: ($2.10) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2, BB raises to $4.5, Hero raises to $25.3, BB calls $17.25 (All-In).

[/ QUOTE ]

If he might call a shove with this range:

Board: Qd 3d 8c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 57.731% 57.70% 00.03% 50267 28.50 { Td8d }
Hand 1: 42.269% 42.24% 00.03% 36796 28.50 { 88, 33, AdKd, AdQd, AdJd, AdTd, Ad9d, Ad8d, Ad7d, Ad6d, Ad5d, Ad4d, Ad3d, Ad2d, KdQd, KdJd, KdTd, Kd9d, Kd8d, Kd7d, Kd6d, Kd5d, Kd4d, Kd3d, Kd2d, Q7s-Q6s, Qd5d, Qd4d, Qd3d, Qd2d, JdTd, Jd9d, Jd8d, Jd7d, Jd6d, Jd5d, Jd4d, Jd3d, Jd2d, Td9d, Td8d, Td7d, Td6d, Td5d, Td4d, Td3d, Td2d, 9d8d, 9d7d, 9d6d, 9d5d, 9d4d, 9d3d, 9d2d, 8d7d, 8d6d, 8d5d, 8d4d, 8d3d, 8d2d, 7d6d, 7d5d, 7d4d, 7d3d, 7d2d, 6d5d, 6d4d, 6d3d, 6d2d, 5d4d, 5d3d, 5d2d, 4d3d, 4d2d, 3d2d, AQo, KQo, Q9o+ }

I want to get all in on the flop. I like the way you played it.

View Poll Results: who likes
check/call	1	8.33%
bet/call	5	41.67%
bet/3b	5	41.67%
check/raise	1	8.33%
bet/fold (NITS)	0	0%
Voters: 12. You may not vote on this poll