The Myth of Meaning

[luckyme]

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The "meaning" comes from knowing that this master plan exists and that it exists for you.

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So when we see the sex-slave kidnapper who loves her and has plans for her, that adds 'meaning' to her life that makes all other concept of meaning she may have had previously obviously meaningless.

Remember the theist claim is that her mothers love, or her care for the poor in her community is "meaningless" and the discovery of being part of some unfathomable plot by a powerful entity who let's the other 27 kids drown... "poof" instant meaning is conferred to her life.

It invalidates the claim if the meaning comes from her reaction to that belief, that's where all meaning comes from so that'd be just more meaningless meaning.

luckyme

[luckyme]

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I clearly didnt explain very well. I dont think the claim is that the meaning you ascribe to your life is increased by believing in god. I think the claim is that the total amount of meaning is increased (which they value and you may not).

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No.
The claim is " The fact that god loves you and has a plan for you gives meaning to your life. All that other stuff you think has meaning, doesn't ..not until god does thing here."

You, and other theists, keep changing my question to
"...by believing..." and versions of that. I could believe that pillow-fighting gives my life meaning on that argument. Somehow, this meaning has to come from the FACT of god and his hanky-panky, not from how I react to it ( else the meaning is coming from my reaction).
IOW, the meaning would exist whether he did or not if it depends on my belief etc.

luckyme

[bunny]

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I clearly didnt explain very well. I dont think the claim is that the meaning you ascribe to your life is increased by believing in god. I think the claim is that the total amount of meaning is increased (which they value and you may not).

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No.
The claim is " The fact that god loves you and has a plan for you gives meaning to your life. All that other stuff you think has meaning, doesn't ..not until god does thing here."

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I dont think that's the claim and if it is I dont think it's defensible.

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You, and other theists, keep changing my question to
"...by believing..." and versions of that. I could believe that pillow-fighting gives my life meaning on that argument. Somehow, this meaning has to come from the FACT of god and his hanky-panky, not from how I react to it ( else the meaning is coming from my reaction).

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I agree you could. The theistic-meaning argument I am advocating is that you do invent meaning based on your reaction, as does the theist. If God exists, then God also creates meaning. Furthermore, he has made the world and us for a reason or a purpose. This meaning exists in addition to the meaning we ascribe to things ourselves.

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IOW, the meaning would exist whether he did or not if it depends on my belief etc.

luckyme

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The meaning God ascribes to my life wouldnt exist if he didnt. If he does exist there is an extra "lump" of meaning in addition to everything we decide is meaningful - namely that arising from his designation of what is meaningful. If he doesnt exist - then that designation doesnt happen and the belief in an extra blob of meaning is just another mistake the theist is making.

[onesandzeros]

Would not a theist find meaning in love, being that "God" is love?

[luckyme]

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The meaning God ascribes to my life wouldnt exist if he didnt.

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If you believe god exists and therefore meaning has now entered your life, how does his actual existence have any bearing on that. You gerry-rigged the meaning into it by your belief. true-false ... what matter.
The meaning therefore is the same "I believe there is meaning..." as any other meaning we have.

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If he does exist there is an extra "lump" of meaning in addition to everything we decide is meaningful - namely that arising from his designation of what is meaningful.

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See above.

If theists want to claim there is meaning in their life only because they believe in god ... have at it. who could argue with that, we had a theist on here who had that view of ham sandwiches.

I think NR's favorite statement went something like this "there IS no meaning without god".
Not " there is no meaning without my belief in god" although, "there is no meaning for me if I have no belief in god" makes sense but that's not the universal they claim.

The meaning can't come from the belief, for obvious reasons, nor is that the theist claim. Somehow, it must come from god 'directly' by the FACT of his existence. Not from your belief in that fact.
"God's love for you gives meaning to your meaningless (otherwise) life". Again, the meaning is a direct consequence of the love, not by my perhaps-false belief in it. Else we're back at "super-mom loves you" which we're told is not meaningful.

luckyme

[bunny]

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The meaning God ascribes to my life wouldnt exist if he didnt.

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If you believe god exists and therefore meaning has now entered your life, how does his actual existence have any bearing on that. You gerry-rigged the meaning into it by your belief. true-false ... what matter.
The meaning therefore is the same "I believe there is meaning..." as any other meaning we have.

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If he does exist there is an extra "lump" of meaning in addition to everything we decide is meaningful - namely that arising from his designation of what is meaningful.

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See above.

If theists want to claim there is meaning in their life only because they believe in god ... have at it. who could argue with that, we had a theist on here who had that view of ham sandwiches.

I think NR's favorite statement went something like this "there IS no meaning without god".
Not " there is no meaning without my belief in god" although, "there is no meaning for me if I have no belief in god" makes sense but that's not the universal they claim.

The meaning can't come from the belief, for obvious reasons, nor is that the theist claim. Somehow, it must come from god 'directly' by the FACT of his existence. Not from your belief in that fact.
"God's love for you gives meaning to your meaningless (otherwise) life". Again, the meaning is a direct consequence of the love, not by my perhaps-false belief in it. Else we're back at "super-mom loves you" which we're told is not meaningful.

luckyme

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Again, I am not defending the claim that there is no meaning without god. I am defending the position that if god exists, there is some source of meaning apart from ourselves. I dont think it necessarily increases meaning to us - as you observe, if I choose to ascribe meaning because of that well more power to me. I agree with you it is not any different from an atheist deriving meaning from whatever source is peculiar to him.

My claim is that there is someone who derives meaning from the world, from my life and from all of existence and who has also constructed the world, my life and all of existence specifically for some purpose. I accept that I dont know what that purpose is, nor what that extra meaning god gives the universe is. I maintain that extra meaning exists and some people may find comfort in that. If they do, I agree with you that extra comfort has come from their belief not from some fact (though I would argue that they wouldnt have the belief without god's grace, that seems a tangential claim though).

[luckyme]

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Again, I am not defending the claim that there is no meaning without god.

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thanks for the effort bunny.
I realize how hard it can be to articulate a position you don't hold. that was essentially the point of the OP, I can't grasp what the theist is even claiming with the 'only Real meaning' phrase. No-one showed up in this thread ( other than to just restate the claim) with even a whiff of an explanation.

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My claim is that there is someone who derives meaning from the world, from my life and from all of existence and who has also constructed the world, my life and all of existence specifically for some purpose. I accept that I dont know what that purpose is, nor what that extra meaning god gives the universe is.

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I've attempted to show that IT can create warts that can walk and love me all IT wants and that only creates meaning for it ( the love-kidnapper example) not for me. It's only my buying into IT's story that the other 4 babies had to die for the good of IT's plan and becoming a henchman without executive privilege that brings 'meaning' ... which seems a weak, vicarious version of meaning. De-meaning meaning.

but, good try, thanks, luckyme

[bunny]

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I realize how hard it can be to articulate a position you don't hold. that was essentially the point of the OP, I can't grasp what the theist is even claiming with the 'only Real meaning' phrase. No-one showed up in this thread ( other than to just restate the claim) with even a whiff of an explanation.

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I think it is confusion on their part between meaning we assign and meaning assigned by god. Even ceding what I think their claim is (that theism implies another 'source' of meaning for which atheists have no analogue) I would think it's not very important, and certainly not very persuasive.

As piers said (I think) those who find value in living in a world with a purpose giving god will think it's a good thing that a purpose giving god exists (or a bad thing that it doesnt). Those who dont care wont care. I think they should acknowledge that the meaning you ascribe to your life comes from yourself, irrespective of whether god exists and how that affects your assignation of meaning. I still think this is consistent with believing that there is "extra" meaning in a theistic world - I just dont think it should mean anything to anyone who doesnt care about such things....

[pokervintage]

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It's only my buying into IT's story.......that brings 'meaning'

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Of course. What is belief in a God? It is accepting without proof. That's understood. If you can't grasp that then you are the one that doesn't understand not the theists. The meaning they speak of comes from YOU accepting God. They do not say that your life has meaning if you do not accept God only if you do. It is and always has been and always will be up to you to accept God without proof for you to gain his love. The theist claims that by doing this your life will take on new meaning. I believe that I finally realize what it is you were asking. Meaning comes from your action not an action of God. Just to keep things straight. I am an atheist but I do believe that i understand these claims made by believers. I just do not accept them.

pokervintage

[luckyme]

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Meaning comes from your action not an action of God.

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Then it does not depend on his existing. Plus it is just the same as any other meaning that things hold for me, an important one in the ranking, but still the same basis.

The claim I am asking about is the one that 'meaning comes from god" ( not from me). The "there is no meaning without god". Your version is not dependent on god, it is dependent on the belief in god, so I'm the source, not god spraying meaning-juice on things by the mere fact of his existence.

luckyme