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  #1  
Old 11-22-2007, 02:42 PM
roggles roggles is offline
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Default Razz - semi-ok hand 3-way - linecheck

Seat 6 is pretty terrible. Pay-off wizard, over-values hands.

This whole hand is standard, right?

On the river he went into the tank about calling, so I was pretty sure he was beat and actually I sat and wanted the call. What hands do call here? Jack lows... even worse, Qs and Ks?

Betting the river here is so automatic for me when we're both drawing, because I used to play 2-7 TD. Lately however, I feel that I have been donking off so much money on the river. Should you not always bet the river when your opponent is showing weakness in this game?

Razz ($5/$10), Ante $1, Bring-In $1,50 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 5: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (4.90 SB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 4: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks

5th Street - (2.45 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 4: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (4.45 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

River - (6.45 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___calls

Total pot: (8.45 BB - $84,50)
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  #2  
Old 11-22-2007, 03:47 PM
iStackBooks iStackBooks is offline
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Default Re: Razz - semi-ok hand 3-way - linecheck

Wait... you really expect this guy to call with a K or Q?? Honestly, I don't see much value in this bet unless he really is that bad. The pot is small on 7th so I see even the worst players folding a J. I think he probably calls if he makes a worse T but that's about it. You are repping a made hand because I think you play a 76 exactly the same here. If he is SUPER suspicious and pays off SUPER light then I guess this works but it seems like there is more value in check-calling to try and pick off a bluff.

If you get raised are you folding?
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  #3  
Old 11-22-2007, 03:51 PM
iStackBooks iStackBooks is offline
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Default Re: Razz - semi-ok hand 3-way - linecheck

Is this on Full Tilt? If so who is it? I've played with most of these guys and have notes on them so that would probably help...
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  #4  
Old 11-22-2007, 05:36 PM
Sp00n Sp00n is offline
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Default Re: Razz - semi-ok hand 3-way - linecheck

gross river bet, this is absolutely horrible.
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  #5  
Old 11-22-2007, 06:09 PM
roggles roggles is offline
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Default Re: Razz - semi-ok hand 3-way - linecheck

How can it be absolutely horrible when he most of the time he has a worse hand?

Seriously, the way you Razz sharks play rivers makes no sense to me. So basically you don't think this has any value, because he doesn't call with a worse hand. That means I should definitely bet the river here with a J, K, Q or pair because he folds better hands without thinking ??? So if this is true, two things happen:

1) I will bet out any hand because otherwise I will only check with a 9 or a T low and I tell people exactly what I have
2) He should call with a K because I will bet anything

I *believe* that rivers are played extremely passive by most Razz players, and people will only value bet like made 8s even though if the other guy is drawing often a jack low will be better than what he gets on average. So I basically think most people suck at river play, even you guys who are loads better than me. Feel free to prove me wrong.
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  #6  
Old 11-22-2007, 07:13 PM
ChipsAhoya ChipsAhoya is offline
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Default Re: Razz - semi-ok hand 3-way - linecheck

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously, the way you Razz sharks play rivers makes no sense to me. So basically you don't think this has any value, because he doesn't call with a worse hand. That means I should definitely bet the river here with a J, K, Q or pair because he folds better hands without thinking ???

I *believe* that rivers are played extremely passive by most Razz players. So I basically think most people suck at river play, even you guys who are loads better than me. Feel free to prove me wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Regardless of how the hand was played, this statement is 100% accurate.

-ChipsAhoya
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  #7  
Old 11-22-2007, 10:14 PM
Raxxmataxx Raxxmataxx is offline
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Default Re: Razz - semi-ok hand 3-way - linecheck

It seems you have something like 50%-53% on the river, prior to any actions. But for you to have that good equity on the bet means that he'll never raise you off with a worse hand and pay off with a ton of really bad hands.

So I don't think you actually have a pure valuebet here, but it may still be better than checking if he is passive and mostly aren't going to bluff when you check while still valuebetting lower hands. Ie, you lose a little less on the bet by betfolding than by checkcalling. If he is passive allround and won't value bet hands like 8:s there's much less clear value in the bet.

I don't think a bet is clearly bad. Especially as his really good 4-card hands on 6th are very unlikely.

I am pretty sure that this is checkcall if we assume perfect play on the river only for both of you. Especially since your paired ace makes this hand not all that good among your possible hands. Assuming you're not crazy on 3d and bet every hand on 5th, T7 is in your bottom 15%, on the river.
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  #8  
Old 11-22-2007, 11:04 PM
iStackBooks iStackBooks is offline
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Default Re: Razz - semi-ok hand 3-way - linecheck

[ QUOTE ]
How can it be absolutely horrible when he most of the time he has a worse hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Rogg, you know better than this. Think of the classic stud example of showing quads on the board. Obviously, if you are showing quads your opponent is going to have the worst hand most of the time, but a bet is clearly very very bad because you are only getting action if you are beat. The same logic applies in situations like this.

This is a situation where unless your opponent is a COMPLETE retard (or he makes the 1 second best hand that MAYBE pays you... a worse T) you are only getting action if you are beat. Therefore, your bet is completely pointless most of the time. Of course, for metagame purposes it is important to bet here every once in a while to mix up your play, but in theory this is a pointless, -EV bet.

This is a very basic concept in poker that applies in pretty much every game.
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  #9  
Old 11-23-2007, 02:59 AM
Praxising Praxising is offline
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Default Re: Razz - semi-ok hand 3-way - linecheck

[ QUOTE ]
5th Street - (2.45 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 4: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (4.45 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls


[/ QUOTE ]I wonder if different choices on earlier play would make the river choice more straightforward? For instance, you didn't bet 4th. I usually bet a hidden pair here, some people generally check. Since everyone checked, there's no information. So, I would assume my opponents have as good a draw as I do or a better one.

Then on 5th, you do bet your four-card draw, and Seat 6 calls. He doesn't have any reason to put you on anything but some kind of made hand or a 6 draw. But he calls anyway, which would make me think he has a wheel draw or at least a good 6.

So then, when I bricked 6th I would have checked. Assuming he would check behind, that means the river is a race and then it makes sense to check it down because he will very likely beat you with a T, 9, 8, 7 or 6. Or maybe also a 5. Since he calls and doesn't raise, I'm guessing he made an 8, 9 or T.

I think the critical decision point isn't on the river, I think it's on 5th when you have enough information to put him on a hand.
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  #10  
Old 11-23-2007, 03:03 AM
adanthar adanthar is offline
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Default Re: Razz - semi-ok hand 3-way - linecheck

[ QUOTE ]
Seat 6 is pretty terrible. Pay-off wizard, over-values hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

this shades it towards a bet but you should probably still c/c here, because him just calling with many better hands doesn't equal it being a good bet. he'll bluff worse, anyhow.
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