Spread Limit article

[jfk]

Enjoyed the article and the general analysis of play but wasn't fond of the way the author played AK in his hand example.

With hands like AK against an opponent that appears willing to go all the way with any pair, I've not thought it correct to put in this size preflop bet. I find that the thought pattern of an opponent like the one he described, with a 2 1/3 max bet stack, is that he'll often push the any non-A or K flop.

It seems that the stacks are deep enough to allow some wiggle in the play of these hands in this structure. I've never been fond of making such a big preflop commitment when I'm likely looking at a coin flip and opponent very willing to get involved.

I'm curious to know if others felt the same way or if a max bet with AK here is standard, acceptable and profitable.

[Nate.]

JFK --

Glad you enjoyed the article. A few things about the preflop raise with AK:

-Each of the two callers is pretty likely to fold. Sometimes the original raiser might even fold.

-The original raiser could very easily have an unpaired hand. And call with it.

-Critically, as I try to communicate in my article, I'm not at much of a disadvantage after the flop. The spread-limit structure prevents me from folding the best hand too often or investing too much money badly with a worse one.

From what I've seen, a maximum raise with AK is not a very common play in low- to mid-limit spread-limit games, but I believe it is the best one (which is why I wrote about it). Note that making a smaller raise (or just calling) not only gives your in-position opponents better odds to call (or lets them see the flop for no additional money) but also changes the structure of the game to a more no-limit-ish one, which gives them much more power after the flop.

A final note is that we can almost always construct a hypothetical opponent that will play perfectly against the hand we happen to be considering. I'm pretty sure that this Villain wasn't going to play perfectly against AK, or much of anything else -- indeed, he didn't.

--Nate

[jfk]

Thanks for the reply. Given your reads and the way the board came down, wasn't there a bit of value to be had at the river with a bet? Had he a pair which beats you (QQ-AA) you would've seen strength by then. Being that you put him on a pocket pair, you almost have to be ahead. I understand the thought process behind why you checked down, but I like your hand at the river.

[ QUOTE ]
Critically, as I try to communicate in my article, I'm not at much of a disadvantage after the flop. The spread-limit structure prevents me from folding the best hand too often or investing too much money badly with a worse one.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see it differently as I don't see the clear value of a max size continuation bet on the flop. You've committed him to stay aboard with many of the hands you believe he may hold.

[UpstateMatt]

Nate:

I really liked your article. Well written, informative, and a fun read.

One question: what do people typically buy-in for in the CAZ spread-game, and how deep do the stacks tend to be if you randomly approach a game?

It seems like that is a major part of whether the game is going to play more like NL or more like limit, more than how you manipulate the pot on any individual hand, correct?

anyway, great job. I feel like you're becoming quite the respected resource on 2+2 lately, congrats.

matt

[Nate.]

[ QUOTE ]
Nate:

I really liked your article. Well written, informative, and a fun read.

One question: what do people typically buy-in for in the CAZ spread-game, and how deep do the stacks tend to be if you randomly approach a game?

It seems like that is a major part of whether the game is going to play more like NL or more like limit, more than how you manipulate the pot on any individual hand, correct?

anyway, great job. I feel like you're becoming quite the respected resource on 2+2 lately, congrats.

matt

[/ QUOTE ]

Matt --

Thanks very much. Miss playing with you.

The max buy is $350. People generally buy in for either $100-$150 or $300-$350 -- roughly half and half. Often, especially during peak hours, there will be a few 750+ stacks at a table.

It's absolutely true that you'll play plenty of hands that are strategically indistinguishable from NL just because there isn't enough money in the effective stack to force you to adjust. But it's there often enough, and the strategy adjustments tend to be infrequent but very important decisions (contrast with the frequent, close decisions we so often concern ourselves with).

Thanks again.

--Nate

[AZplayer]

Nate -

This article is terrific and I commend you. I've reread it several times as there are some pretty important concepts that have been immediately helpful to my play. I am one of those successful but still sub-optimal players to which you refer, and 95% of my profit* has come from people that play horrendously bad.

* I've started playing this game quite a bit in 2007 after abandoning online play and have averaged $64/hr over 62 hours of play so far - still way too early to tell but I am successful and have gotten to know most of the regulars.

Anyway, I've definitely lived the moment when the game tips from no-limit to limit and I'd maintain that while it's undefinable, you also "sense" when you're then playing limit. Over the last few weeks I've witnessed several pots worth $1500-2000 that essentially play like limit postflop. I was lucky enough to participate in and win one of these and in reassessing my play realized I got lucky not only with the cards but that I happened to play it correctly according to your article.

I am curious on your thoughts about two things:

1 - adapting to the live $10 straddle that is not uncommon. On this specifically, I frequently see 4-6 callers on the straddle, and only occasionally someone make a raise. Many people will play for the $10 but fold even to a $60 raise when there is already $40-50 in the pot. At that point isn't it playing much like the $75-150 limit game in that the dead money in 5-150 is close to what the blinds would be in the 75-150 limit game? Does standard limit hand selection guide your decisions from that point on?

2 - the 'coming soon' 10-150 game with a $1k max buyin.

[Vorlin]

Nate,

Love the article! After dealing with a bunch of nonsense in some low buy in and freeroll NLHE MTT's, I'm going to start looking for spread limit games.

It's funny to read your article for me because I got my start at Casino Arizona, in the 101 and 202 tent, back when Talking Stick was still a tent too and the poker tables were between two large groups of slot machines that never stopped ringing.

If Rima is still dealing there, tell her I said hi. She'd not remember my name but tell her that she deat me quad 4's by 4th street against "Mr. Superior play of the cards" in 7 stud on his kill pot. I think she'd remember that one [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

And if she's still there, say hi to Mary too!

Vorlin