Learning stud hi lo

[RustyBrooks]

Nah, I play 1/2.

Find and read Ray Zee's book. Its good. Don't go overboard, though, his book assumes that your opponents have reasonable starting hand requirements, they definitely don't. PS is a good place to play because you get to see your opponent's cards in order, a big help in reading hands.

A23s is a fine hand but not the best, I don't think. I'd probably rather have 345s because it has more ways to make a high hand (it develops straight draws more often). Rolled up starters are good also, Ray Zees top hand group is 3 card low straight flush cards and rolled up hands. The *best* high hand is often quite good. The second best high hand with no chance for low is garbage.

My tight requirements are therefore things like:
* trips
* almost all 3 card 6s, many 3 card 7s, few 3 card 8s. For the 7s and 8s it's more likely I'll play if I can limp late without fear of a raise, and I prefer it if I have some reasonable straight or flush potential - I play any 3 card 8 that is also a 3 straight or 3 flush, and often will play a 2 straight or 2 flush, or 2str/2flush.
* aces with wheel kickers - these can develop into low hands and are almost always best on 3rd.
* high pairs - if they are likely to be the highest pair, an A has not already entered the pot, if I can raise and limit the field, and if I understand my opponents' tendencies - I dump KK all the time if conditions are not favorable. I raise TT if I think it's the best high hand and I can get the hand down to, say, a low draw and a worse high. Big pairs are sometimes better disguised, with a low door card, and sometimes better obvious, with a high door card.
* I play some small pairs, with small kickers, if there's a 2 flush or 2 straight, like 445 or 226 with a 2 flush, something like that. These are probably pretty marginal hands.

Playing more speculative hands, to me, means playing more rough 7s, a few more 8s, and more hands that are small pairs with a 8 or under kicker. I'm looking to make trips on 4th, or maybe a low 2 pair, or maybe pick up a low card, something like that. I might also limp some big pairs that I think might not be the best high hand. On pokerstars you can limp in for .25sb, so you're often getting like 10:1 or 12:1 on that call, and if you make big trips on 4th you can probably rake in some more dough, especially if you can sandwich losing highs and lows between you and the winning low, catching them for multiple bets.


The *biggest* consideration in hi/low is getting out of a hand early when you are not a favorite to win "your" side of the pot, and you are not drawing to the other side, either. This is not such a big deal if your opponents don't ram and jam the big streets, but if they do, drop it. Never forget that you are often playing for 1/2 the pot, so you are NOT getting the pot odds you might think you are. Be careful against people who might be freerolling you (they have one side locked up with a draw to beat the other side). Anyway, read Zee's book for way more info on that kind of thing. His book covers O8 also.

[RustyBrooks]

Oh, and Zee posts/reads here so if you have a question to ask him about his book, he might even answer you.

I also probably oversimplified a few things in my most recent response, so don't take any of that as gospel.

[Taso]

Thanks for the detailed post Rusty, just a few clarifying questionns/comments.

A23s vs 345s - That was the type of hand I thought might be better, I wasn't sure if the A-low made it a better startng hand or not. Thanks for answering.

By 3 card 6s, dooes the "s" mean 3 cards <6 that are suited? Or was it just a plural "6"?

What is a "rough" "x" ? Off suit? Unconnected?

As for the high hands, I thought I remembered reading somewhere that you shouldn't bother enterting a pot unless you have a chance to scoop it? Am I making that up?

Also, hand I just played: I had 234, got an A on 4th street. Is it 'generally' correct to play four cards to a good low hand aggressivly? I think I was unsuited.

Thanks again, and these questions aren't just for rusty, no need for me to burden him alone :P

Edit: also, should hands like A23 and 234 and 345 suited be played aggresivley before 4th street?

[RustyBrooks]

I was pretty sloppy with terminology above. Let me try a few clarifications.

A23sss (all one suit) vs 345sss - they have about the same chance to make a low. A23 will make better lows but that's not as important, imo, as the chance to make a straight for high.

By 3 card 6 I meant any 3 cards 6 or lower

A "rough" low is one where your 2nd card is not much lower than your 1st card, like 862 or 765.

You are correct about the desire to scoop. High hands CAN scoop though, since there is a qualifier for the low, sometimes there isn't one. And even when someone makes a low, it's worth staying in with a high if you have a very good chance of winning the high, because you can usually win 1/2 the pot but not put in 1/2 the chips. Note though that against 2 opponents, where you must split the pot, you are paying 1bb to win .5bb, so you must be VERY sure to win high. Also, heads up with an obvious high hand you can often win the pot on 4th or 5th when your opponent going low bricks.

At any rate, if you can guarantee or nearly gaurantee winning one side, there is no reason to fold, and no reason to try to eliminate opponents (unless eliminating them might make your chances of scooping larger)

Yes, you should play 4 low cards aggressively against multiple opponents especially in a case like that where you have a small chance to make a great high hand also. Without a made hand you'd probably prefer to get the other low draws out and play against the high hands (you want the other low draws out so you can win with 8432A or 7432A. You don't mind the high hands being in, because you don't have that much chance of winning if you make 1 pair, but a great chance of scooping with a wheel. You would try to knock opponents out that are going high if that increases your chances of winning if you catch one pair. Check out roggle's recent thread on collusion in this board - they forced him out when he had AA, which enabled 44 to win the high. And I think his fold was correct, there was too much chance that he'd get screwed.

[Taso]

Okay, great, thanks for clarifying. I figured I should play those 4 low cards aggresively. It didn't work out for me either time, as it went miss-miss-miss both of the times I've been in that spot, whatevs, lol.

So, if anyone cares, I said "screw it" to the play money games, felt it was a waste of time, and I've been doing .10/.20, while reading through this thread inbetween hands. I'm playing bad/not hitting any cards and I'm down $8, but will carry on in hopes of improving. :P

[RustyBrooks]

I'm at your table, playing like an idiot.

[Taso]

Darnit, I just left. I was getting really annoyed because I was in a hold 'em game with a good hand, and whenever I went to click "bet" or "call" or anything, the stud window would pop up asking me for my action, leaving me utterly confused and pissed off. I didn't realize you were there, my bad. (I'm currently in line for 2 nlhe games so I can make back some $$ and then go lose it again in stud :P)