Can Christians Accept A Ressurection Within The Laws of Physics?

David Sklansky · #1 05-24-2007, 01:57 AM

Before elaborating on the question, I want to take the opportunity to make sure that everyone understands that I have never said that I am almost certain there is no God.

What I have said is that I am almost certain that supernatural events that can not conceivably have a scientific explanation have never occurred. (with the two possible exceptions of the Big Bang and human consciousness.)

Of course the end result of this certainty is that I don't believe that the God portrayed in the bible exists, since he is said to perform miracles that totally disobey scientific laws. And those who think that my studying the bible might change my mind are being almost as silly as those who think my studying the details of a craps system might make me think it works. Even if I couldn't find the flaw in the system, the underlying principles guarantees there is a flaw (granted the bible scnario is not as mathematically certain.)

Now if the bible did not proclaim that God sometimes did things well beyond what science could explain, like the Noah story, the Earth standing still, etc I wouldn't be here debating the subject. Arguing against that God would be something I would leave to chezlaw, Phil153, luckyme or MidGe. But it does proclaim those things.

And the things are so hard to believe that some religious people try to make things easier to swallow by suggesting that God finds a way to perform miracles in such a way that he somehow harnesses scientific laws to do them. The Red Sea being an obvious example. They also are willing to admit that most claimed miracles are frauds (grilled cheese) or perhaps only misunderstandings or hallucinations (stopped sun).

What I would like to know is whether these Christians who would lump these miracles into some type of natural event "guided by God" (whatever that means) are willing to put the Resurrection itself in that category. Jesus didn't really die. He was ressucitated, He had a twin. Or anything else that didn't flat out disobey laws of science. Or do they have to keep that one "miracle" in a seperate category in their minds, even if all others are scientifically explainable?

bunny · #2 05-24-2007, 02:56 AM

I think it is possible for a Christian to have this view of all miracles, although it has probably drifted far enough from theism to be some other-ism (deism?).

However, even in Australia, I dont think it is a very common view.

arahant · #3 05-24-2007, 03:10 AM

You're kind of putting the lie to your earlier post about people who are mathematically and logically talented...

At least, if you are.

chezlaw · #4 05-24-2007, 03:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Now if the bible did not proclaim that God sometimes did things well beyond what science could explain, like the Noah story, the Earth standing still, etc I wouldn't be here debating the subject. Arguing against that God would be something I would leave to chezlaw, Phil153, luckyme or MidGe.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've never argued against such a god.

I've argued against arguing for or against such a god, particularly the misuse of probabilistic arguments.

chez

PairTheBoard · #5 05-24-2007, 04:12 AM

Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world". A Christianity that demands the disruption of laws of nature is one that does not take this statement seriously. A Spiritual Resurection of Christ has more Reality than a physical one because it is an Ultimate Reality of the Spiritual.

There is no reason to disbelieve in the God of the Bible because of Bible stories containing descriptions of disruptions in the laws of nature. They are stories. Such Disruptions of Nature were commonplace to the Minds of the people of that time. So they freely used them in their stories. There is no reason for us to be bothered by that.

Those people were also on a Spiritual Journey. It's in the record of that Journey that Spiritual truths emerge. Not in the shortcomings of the Spiritual condition of the people along the way. But in their Spiritual progress.

You have to open yourself to the possibility of the Spritual to be able to see this.

PairTheBoard

SNOWBALL · #6 05-24-2007, 05:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world". A Christianity that demands the disruption of laws of nature is one that does not take this statement seriously. A Spiritual Resurection of Christ has more Reality than a physical one because it is an Ultimate Reality of the Spiritual.

There is no reason to disbelieve in the God of the Bible because of Bible stories containing descriptions of disruptions in the laws of nature. They are stories. Such Disruptions of Nature were commonplace to the Minds of the people of that time. So they freely used them in their stories. There is no reason for us to be bothered by that.

Those people were also on a Spiritual Journey. It's in the record of that Journey that Spiritual truths emerge. Not in the shortcomings of the Spiritual condition of the people along the way. But in their Spiritual progress.

You have to open yourself to the possibility of the Spritual to be able to see this.

PairTheBoard

[/ QUOTE ]

you're a very interesting dude. I can see why Sklansky likes arguing with you so much. Did you ever read Hegel?

David Sklansky · #7 05-24-2007, 05:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world". A Christianity that demands the disruption of laws of nature is one that does not take this statement seriously. A Spiritual Resurection of Christ has more Reality than a physical one because it is an Ultimate Reality of the Spiritual.

There is no reason to disbelieve in the God of the Bible because of Bible stories containing descriptions of disruptions in the laws of nature. They are stories. Such Disruptions of Nature were commonplace to the Minds of the people of that time. So they freely used them in their stories. There is no reason for us to be bothered by that.

Those people were also on a Spiritual Journey. It's in the record of that Journey that Spiritual truths emerge. Not in the shortcomings of the Spiritual condition of the people along the way. But in their Spiritual progress.

You have to open yourself to the possibility of the Spritual to be able to see this.

PairTheBoard

[/ QUOTE ]

You are talking like a Reform Jew who thinks that Jesus was a great teacher approximately equivalent to Moses. Not like a Christian. Again something that everyone on this forum from Not Ready and BluffThis to Zeno and Lestat (but not you) understands.

Taraz · #8 05-24-2007, 05:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world". A Christianity that demands the disruption of laws of nature is one that does not take this statement seriously. A Spiritual Resurection of Christ has more Reality than a physical one because it is an Ultimate Reality of the Spiritual.

There is no reason to disbelieve in the God of the Bible because of Bible stories containing descriptions of disruptions in the laws of nature. They are stories. Such Disruptions of Nature were commonplace to the Minds of the people of that time. So they freely used them in their stories. There is no reason for us to be bothered by that.

Those people were also on a Spiritual Journey. It's in the record of that Journey that Spiritual truths emerge. Not in the shortcomings of the Spiritual condition of the people along the way. But in their Spiritual progress.

You have to open yourself to the possibility of the Spritual to be able to see this.

PairTheBoard

[/ QUOTE ]

You are talking like a Reform Jew who thinks that Jesus was a great teacher approximately equivalent to Moses. Not like a Christian. Again something that everyone on this forum from Not Ready and BluffThis to Zeno and Lestat (but not you) understands.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO in this case he's talking like someone who has some sense.

PairTheBoard · #9 05-24-2007, 05:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Did you ever read Hegel?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've heard of him. Wasn't he a commie?

PairTheBoard

Phil153 · #10 05-24-2007, 05:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world". A Christianity that demands the disruption of laws of nature is one that does not take this statement seriously. A Spiritual Resurection of Christ has more Reality than a physical one because it is an Ultimate Reality of the Spiritual.

There is no reason to disbelieve in the God of the Bible because of Bible stories containing descriptions of disruptions in the laws of nature. They are stories. Such Disruptions of Nature were commonplace to the Minds of the people of that time. So they freely used them in their stories. There is no reason for us to be bothered by that.

Those people were also on a Spiritual Journey. It's in the record of that Journey that Spiritual truths emerge. Not in the shortcomings of the Spiritual condition of the people along the way. But in their Spiritual progress.

You have to open yourself to the possibility of the Spritual to be able to see this.

PairTheBoard

[/ QUOTE ]

you're a very interesting dude. I can see why Sklansky likes arguing with you so much. Did you ever read Hegel?

[/ QUOTE ]
He's a juggler. Many of the bright christians are. When I was in 8th grade there was a chaplain in my school exactly like this. He knew that Christ either didn't exist or was based on some unimportant historical figure. He called Christ "a movement of the spirit" and the acceptance of Christ as "the acceptance of love", as wasn't the least bit fazed that Christ story was complete nonsense. He happily stood up and preached under the shadow of this hypocrisy, using his meaning while knowing others would attribute the term to their ideas built up from the bible, Sunday school, movies, Christmas and so on.

He would switch between metaphor and reality quickly, retreating to claims of "Spirit" when shown to be wrong, not caring for truth but hoping to spread his particular understanding of Love to others. I have no doubt he'd use capitals as well to Obscure the Triviality of his Thoughts.

Had he let his balls drop, he would have been an atheist, or at least a Buddhist.