Electron microscope analysis of steel spheres from WTC site

[Ron Paul]

This is Borodog here. I believe I will be using this account for the forseeable future. If some kindly mod could give this account the undertitle of Borodog I would appreciate it.

Anyway, I wanted to put this AIM conversation that I had with Nielsio on the record, as I think it was a good, if ultimately futile, discussion. The screen names have been changed by the way.

[15:50] Borodog: Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think you understand the physics of the WTC collapses.
[15:50] Nielsio: That doesn't really help me
[15:50] Borodog: Do you know how much energy was stored in each tower, available for demolition was the collapse began?
[15:50] Borodog: *once
[15:51] Nielsio: There is a problem when you a combination of a number of factors
[15:51] Nielsio: *have
[15:51] Borodog: I'm not talking about that
[15:51] Borodog: I'm talking about the energy avaliable for demolition
[15:52] Nielsio: If you say that gravity was enough for the collapse, then you cannot account for either the speed of the collapse OR the dust
[15:52] Borodog: it's about a trillion joules per tower.
[15:52] Borodog: whoever told you that is simply wrong
[15:52] Borodog: the dust is solely from drywall
[15:52] Borodog: do know how much drywall was in that building?
[15:52] Borodog: millions of pounds
[15:53] Nielsio: It doesn't just hop up in the air and turn to micro-dust
[15:53] Borodog: it get's crushed instantaneously, yes
[15:53] Borodog: as the higheer floors plow into any individual floor like a freight train
[15:53] Borodog: take a peice of drywall, and strike it with a hammer
[15:54] Borodog: it is immediately pulverized and turned to dust; which explodes in every direction
[15:54] Borodog: try it
[15:54] Borodog: a trillion joules
[15:55] Nielsio: What about the floors
[15:55] Nielsio: Do they also explode instantly?
[15:56] Borodog: when hundreds of thousands of tons slam into them at a hundred miles per hour?
[15:56] Borodog: Yes.
[15:57] Nielsio: So do the floors offer resistance or no?
[15:58] Borodog: You know the answer is yes, but you also know that the resistance offered is completely ne igable.
[15:58] Nielsio: (floors+inner and outer steel frame)
[15:58] Borodog: Dude, its THOUSANDS OF TONS MOVING AT HIGH SPEED. You have no intuitive understanding of an impact like that.
[15:59] Nielsio: Ok, so let's say we have this big mass of body moving straight down
[16:00] Nielsio: Breaking through everything it comes upon
[16:00] Nielsio: Which offers almost no resistance
[16:00] Nielsio: Then it would seem to me that I would not expect this much dust
[16:00] Nielsio: Because in order to have that, you need resistance
[16:01] Borodog: dude, there was millions of pounds of drywall, which is little more than compressed dust
[16:01] Nielsio: On the other hand, I would then also not expect such a massive energy outwards
[16:01] Borodog: come on. You know it doesn't work like that. When a dump truck runs into a fly, does the truck notice the fly? No. But the fly sure as hell notices the truck.
[16:02] Borodog: What, exactly, does "energy outwards" mean?
[16:02] Borodog: I'll give you a hint; it has no meaning. Energy does not have direction.
[16:02] Nielsio: http://usera.imagecave.com/markyannone/Album9/wtc.jpg
[16:02] Nielsio: That kind of outward energy
[16:02] Borodog: There is no such thing
[16:02] Nielsio: Outward force
[16:02] Nielsio: http://www.serendipity.li/wot/finn/5/sor11000.jpg
[16:03] Nielsio: Also, I would be interested in a detailed sequential mechanism
[16:03] Nielsio: Which you seem to be hinting at
[16:03] Borodog: This is just silly dude. The building is full of air. As the building collapses, the drywall is instantaneously pulverized into dust and blown out by air pressure.
[16:06] Borodog: Do you really find it so hard to believe that dust from a building collapse can be blown out to a distance of X from a building that is X wide and almost 9X tall?
[16:06] Borodog: I mean, honestly?
[16:06] Nielsio: Yes
[16:06] Nielsio: http://www.columbia.edu/~rr91/images...20collapse.jpg
[16:06] Nielsio: Usually, buildings behave much much more like objects
[16:07] Nielsio: With structural integrity
[16:07] Borodog: Most building are dropped from the bottom down when they are demolished, not from the top down.
[16:08] Borodog: The whole building falls in free fall. In this case the collapse started at the top; the upper floors acted like a snowplow, building up mass and momentum as they fell.
[16:08] Nielsio: If that is the case, it should be pretty easy to turn that into a model
[16:08] Borodog: People have.
[16:08] Nielsio: Into something that predicts what happens
[16:09] Nielsio: And makes it understandable
[16:09] Nielsio: No, not really
[16:09] Borodog: It's perfectly understanable.
[16:09] Nielsio: You cannot get the blueprints; it's illegal
[16:09] Nielsio: The Discovery Channel models are not even funny
[16:10] Nielsio: Also:
[16:10] Nielsio: NIST has not described any such sequential mechanism
[16:10] Nielsio: It does not go further than ' obal collapse ensued'
[16:11] Nielsio: I would be seriously interested in that
[16:12] Nielsio: Do you have a gmail address? I have some pictures of strucural failures and fires
[16:12] Nielsio: They're pretty interesting
[16:12] Borodog: Dude. I have no idea what to say to you. The energy avaible for those collapse was 5% of the energy of an ATOMIC BOMB. If you don't think you can knock down a skyscraper with that, or eject some dust a few hundred feet, then you just simply want the conspiracy more.
[16:13] Nielsio: Energy != sequential mechanism that takes into account all structural elements
[16:17] Borodog: You want the conspiracy more.
[16:18] Nielsio: What do you mean
[16:18] Nielsio: ' obal collapse ensued' is not a sufficient explanation
[16:18] Nielsio: In fact, it's not an explanation
[16:18] Nielsio: It's god of the gaps
[16:18] Nielsio: And I don't accept that
[16:19] Borodog: No, it isn't.. The building burned for 7 hours or something until the structural steel failed.
[16:19] Borodog: It was already damaged by being STRUCK BY A JUMBO JET FUEL OF JET FUEL.
[16:20] Borodog: A bomb indeed went off in each tower. THEY HAD WINGS.
[16:20] Nielsio: Actually, the north tower burned for less than an hour
[16:20] Borodog: After being struck by a JUMBO JET FULL OF JET FUEL
[16:20] Nielsio: So
[16:20] Borodog: The fireballs blew out through the far side of the building.
[16:20] Nielsio: These buildings were designed to take airplane hits
[16:21] Borodog: Do you honestly think there's no possibility that the structure was damaged?
[16:21] Nielsio: You're avoiding the issue
[16:21] Borodog: no, I'm not
[16:21] Nielsio: Is ' obal collapse ensued' a sufficient explanation or not?
[16:21] Borodog: you're avoiding the bleedin y obvious
[16:23] Borodog: I think the JUMBO JETS FULL OF JET FUEL and the ensuing GIANT EXPLOSIONS IN THE BUILDING STRUCTURES is a sufficient explanation.
[16:23] Nielsio: If you think it's so obvious then it should be quite easy to give a detailed description of everything that happens during those 12-15 seconds that they come down
[16:23] Nielsio: A description that explains what we see on the tapes
[16:24] Nielsio: That explains the physical evidence (dust, speed, etc)
[16:24] Nielsio: That would shut the whole 9-11 thing up
[16:24] Nielsio: Completely
[16:24] Nielsio: It would shut me up
[16:24] Borodog: No, it wouldn't.
[16:27] Nielsio: Try me
[16:27] Borodog: Dude, a plane full of jet fuel exploding in the middle of a building doesn't shut you up. Some model filled with assumptions you would just claim were wrong or unjustifiable would not help.
[16:27] Nielsio: I would also like to note that NIST would be extremely interested in such a description
[16:28] Nielsio: You could probably get a whole bunch of money for that
[16:29] Borodog: sigh
[16:29] Nielsio: You're assuming your conclusions sir
[16:30] Borodog: I wish you would just step back and listen to the way you sound. This is what I hear when you talk about this: "How could a plane full of jet fuel slamming into a building and exploding cause it to collapse?"
[16:32] Nielsio: So no sequential mechanism from you?
[16:32] Borodog: So. Which is greater? Probability that a plane full of jet fuel slamming into a bilding and exploding could make it collapse, or, a giant, well organized conspiracy was undertaken by the incompetents in government.
[16:32] Nielsio: That's a pity
[16:32] Borodog: I have a sequential mechanism
[16:33] Borodog: It starts with a jumbo jet full of jet fuel slamming into the building, exploding in the heart of the structure and blowing out the far side, burning for hours, and then the steel failing.
[16:33] Borodog: How incredibly impossible!
[16:35] Nielsio: It's up to you: you claim what happens after is easy and comprehensible. So why don't you or why doesn't anybody?
[16:35] Borodog: I just did.
[16:35] Nielsio: Describe/model it for the rest of us
[16:35] Nielsio: Make it a school project
[16:36] Borodog: Why don't you show that an explosion in the midst of the steel structure of the WTC couldn't damage it to the point of failure?
[16:36] Nielsio: Get on Discovery Channel
[16:37] Borodog: Why bother? What good would it do? P(structural failure) is already >> P(giant conspiracy), and it doesn't phase you.
[16:37] Borodog: What could would shifting those numbers another order of magnitude do?
[16:38] Nielsio: Structural failure (which hasn't been proven btw) != sequential mechanism of disintegration/collapse
[16:38] Nielsio: NIST did a test with a life-size model
[16:38] Borodog: I gave you a sequential mechanism.
[16:39] Nielsio: They couldn't reproduce it
[16:39] Borodog: a life sized model? Of the WTC towers?
[16:39] Borodog: Uh, not?
[16:39] Nielsio: No, of columns
[16:39] Borodog: They slammed a jumbo jet full of jet fuel into some steel collumns and didn't damage them?
[16:39] Borodog: LINK?
[16:40] Borodog: And those columns were supporting tens of thousands of tons at the time?
[16:42] Nielsio: It's mentioned in here:
http://thefreedomchannel.blogspot.co...anisms-of.html
[16:42] Nielsio: I'll ttyl
[16:43] Borodog: later
[16:43] Borodog: no hard feelings
[16:43] Borodog: good argument
[16:43] Nielsio: Meh, a bit too much cynicism
[16:47] Borodog: He is TOTALLY NE ECTING THE IMPACT AND EXPLOSION. All he's talking about is fire. He's also ne ecting the fact that those structural members had a hundred thousands tons sitting on top of them stressing them during the fire, after they'd already been damaged by the impact.
[16:48] Borodog: and explosion

[TomCollins]

Nielsio is batshit insane? I guess the Palestinians hate the Jews and the sky is blue today too. Nice Pwnage, Boro. But you cannot reason with someone who believes in something with this religiousness. Neilsio will believe anything that helps his cause, and deny anything that does not. The opinion of someone with intensive studies in physics is far greater than a nut with a Youtube station.

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would someone want to fly a plane into a building AND blow it up with explosives? It seems like one or the other would accomplish the same task.

[/ QUOTE ]

The conspiracy nuts refuse to believe that flying a fully-fueled jet arliner into a building would be sufficient to cause it to collapse. Supposedly, the jets crashing into the building were to distract us from the *real* cause of the collapse.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I meant to say is that do you get that much more out of the building collapsing rather than having a plane flown into it? If the purpose of the attack was to cause terror, either plan works. I just don't see why anyone would go through the trouble of also rigging explosives if they are already flying the planes.

What added benefit do you get if the towers collapse compared to the case where they are just really messed up by planes?

[Duke]

That was an interesting chat log. You have a lot of patience, Borodog.

EDIT: It's actually pretty similar to my Pluto/penguin conversation.

[Ron Paul]

I want to apologize for posting this without Nielsio's permission, which I thoughtlessly did not consider asking for.

[arahant]

See...this is the kind of thing I'm talking about in my persistence of belief thread [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Nielso: I'm SURE you've already read the entire report, and probably just missed the section on the collapse mechanics. I understand...It's 1000's of pages of very technical material, and it probably took you a long time to read. By the time you got to the 4th volume, you may have been dozing off.

But here. You can probably start reading around page 300 or 310, and get what you want.

[Nielsio]

[ QUOTE ]
See...this is the kind of thing I'm talking about in my persistence of belief thread [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Nielso: I'm SURE you've already read the entire report, and probably just missed the section on the collapse mechanics. I understand...It's 1000's of pages of very technical material, and it probably took you a long time to read. By the time you got to the 4th volume, you may have been dozing off.

But here. You can probably start reading around page 300 or 310, and get what you want.

[/ QUOTE ]


I just read through Chapter 5 and it does not describe a sequential mechanism of the *collapses* (as I call for a number times in this thread).

[Nielsio]

[ QUOTE ]
I want to apologize for posting this without Nielsio's permission, which I thoughtlessly did not consider asking for.

[/ QUOTE ]


I won't vote for Ron Paul in the elections, but I will vote for him as mod.

[mjkidd]

WTF do you mean when you say "sequential mechanism?" How does the NIST model for the events not qualify?

Oh, and did you read Mr. Plank's paper on blackbody radiation that I linked to? I assume you're satisfied that aluminium can, in fact, be orange if it is of an appropriate temperature.

[tomdemaine]

Neilso this is a serious question I'm not trying to be snarky here. What do you think would change in the world if tomorrow it was proven 100% certain that the American government blew up the twin towers on 9/11? A mood shift? Something ethereal? A revolution? Nothing?