SH Razz, when should I bet the river?

[Alchemist]

I'm going to tempt Andy's ban stick by posting more than one hand in a thread.

I really have no clue when I could/should be betting for value on the river in these hands or if it's safer to check behind or even how close of a decision it is. I'm sure because it's 3-handed it makes betting clearer.

What if we started full ring?

HORSE - Razz ($0.50/$1), Ante $0.10, Bring-In $0.15 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.60 SB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___completes___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 6: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds

4th Street - (4.90 SB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 5: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (3.45 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 5: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (5.45 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 5: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

River - (7.45 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 5: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___checks

Total pot: (7.45 BB - $7.45)


HAND 2

HORSE - Razz ($0.50/$1), Ante $0.10, Bring-In $0.15 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.60 SB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 5: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 6: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (2.60 SB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 5: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (2.30 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 5: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (4.30 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 5: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

River - (6.30 BB)

Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 5: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___checks

Total pot: (6.30 BB - $6.30)

[Andy B]

The only things I ban for are screen-shots using a four-color deck and anything mentioning "light" beer.

I think these are OK spots to check the river, shorthanded or otherwise. On the first hand in particular, the other guy ought to be drawing to a big hand.

[oscillator]

hand one is 100 check with 78 full ring for sure...short handed depends slightly on the other door folded. he'll prob pay off a bet with his 9 since hes in a call down position, however i dont feel very comfortable here. i like your check.

2nd hand its bet full and shorthanded. hes drawing much thinner,and is in call down mode with a 9

[2461Badugi]

Both of these are easy, easy value bets at this level, regardless of full or short.

[oscillator]

oh yeah, missed that detail! .50/1 value value value...by 2/4 i think i revert back to my op.

[chucky]

First hand check, you have a fully defined hand and will only get called by hands that beat 87. Second hand I value bet. You get calls from ppl with 9 high because to call on 5th street he had to believe that you had paired.

[SweetLuckyMe]

I think hand number 1 is a definite check behind - you're only getting action if you're beat.
Hand number 2 is a good spot to value bet. You're likely to get called by a much wider range of hands there.

[Alchemist]

Well I'm perhaps even more confused now than before I posted the hands. The concensus seems to be to check the first hand and bet the second. Both hands seem almost identical to me, so maybe I'm just retarded.

On 4th street I have a 4-card 8 against presumably a good 3-card low with a brick.
5th we both catch good.
6th I catch paint and him a 9.
River I pair up.

So what specifically makes the second hand a bet? Is it because 6s are no good to him? If he catches a 7 on 5th instead of the 8, does that make the river a check?

[2461Badugi]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I'm perhaps even more confused now than before I posted the hands. The concensus seems to be to check the first hand and bet the second. Both hands seem almost identical to me, so maybe I'm just retarded.

On 4th street I have a 4-card 8 against presumably a good 3-card low with a brick.
5th we both catch good.
6th I catch paint and him a 9.
River I pair up.

So what specifically makes the second hand a bet? Is it because 6s are no good to him? If he catches a 7 on 5th instead of the 8, does that make the river a check?

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about what your hand looks like to your opponent. The hiddenness of your eight in the first hand is huge.

[chucky]

First is a check because villian called 5th with two babies and a queen showing. this means he probably has 4 cards to 6 high entering the river. As I said before, he knows you have 8 high in hand 1. In hand 2 he called with a 9 on sixth street. This means he probably believes you have not made 8 high yet. Betting here gets called by 9 highs and 87 highs that think you never made it. Yes 7 on 5th changes river to a check. I think that villian would bet 7 high on 7th street though.