mike l. asked me

[Gabe]

60-120, you're in BB, raised and folded to you, raiser offers to give you x chips back, if you don't look. Whats break-even, if raiser is raising with just his normal raising hands, and offering the deal with all his raising hands? (x doesn't have to be whole chips.)

[The Funky Llama]

what position was the raisor?

If Im reading your question right, my first instinct is he would need to give you one small bet because you will have to check/fold the flop since PFR will be either firing 2 or 3 barrels depending on the strength of his hand and you don't have enough equity holding a random hand to get past the flop.

[The Funky Llama]

actually you might not need to check/fold the flop. Say its like a CO open raisor....you have pretty good equity and if you call 2 bets PFR can only bet the river with a decently strong hand I think. So you are putting in 3sb a lot and 5sb sometimes. If PFR checks the turn I guess we need to bet the river for value with our random hand (unless its like an A/K or something) b/c PFR's check means he has less than 50% equity vs a random hand. PFR will still have to call river though it seems.


Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 60.659% 59.47% 01.29% 7559088 163323.50 { 33+, A2s+, K8s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 87s, 76s, A4o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 1: 39.341% 38.12% 01.29% 4845101 163323.50 { random }

I guess the question is : how much is your expectation lowered by not looking at your cards? Seems pretty tough to answer...I guess you would have to figure out the optimal strategy for PFR (how often is he betting the turn/river and your equity when u reach the showdown with random hand vs his range) and compare it to your average expectation with a random hand when you CAN see your cards (taken from Poker Tracker data or something).

[vmacosta]

funky llama,
I think you misunderstood the question. The second the BB refuses the deal he can look at his cards and play normally. This deal gets offered from both sides a fair amount in california live games. usually it occurs AFTER the BB has looked at his hand and he asks "1 chip back?"

cracks me up every time

[DeathDonkey]

Ok some details for people who aren't aware of the structure, after PFR raises and SB folds there is $220 in the pot including your BB and you have to call $60 more, so you are getting 3.67:1 to call. If you fold, your EV is 0, I feel my EV in this spot with a random hand vs a PFR with let's guess top 30% of his hands is certainly positive (ie: without looking at my hand I would still prefer to call dark than fold dark, this is obvious), so the question is how positive?

Even if I only have 30% equity vs his range, which I'm lowballing from Funky Llama's stove because of playability factors being OOP, I am entitled to $66 of the $220, so I think its about right to fold blind and let him "take the profit" something you hear a lot in LA games as well as "one back".

That said I don't make deals because it encourages further softplaying in the future and I hate to have to remember who thinks I make what deal etc. etc.

-DeathDonkey

[OnkelHotte]

hmm in average any player loses 0,1 - 0,2 BB/hand in the BB. right? So the deal would be fine if villain offers more than we lose in average in the BB/hand?

[Victor]

raisers position is super important. if its the button i would say you need a refund of less than .1bb.

[emerson]

[ QUOTE ]
60-120, you're in BB, raised and folded to you, raiser offers to give you x chips back, if you don't look. Whats break-even, if raiser is raising with just his normal raising hands, and offering the deal with all his raising hands? (x doesn't have to be whole chips.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, somebody did something like this at Commerce when I was in the sb and had folded. Big blind agreed they would split. I reached and took my SB back. They complained and called the floor who sided with me. No chopping.

[DeathDonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
60-120, you're in BB, raised and folded to you, raiser offers to give you x chips back, if you don't look. Whats break-even, if raiser is raising with just his normal raising hands, and offering the deal with all his raising hands? (x doesn't have to be whole chips.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, somebody did something like this at Commerce when I was in the sb and had folded. Big blind agreed they would split. I reached and took my SB back. They complained and called the floor who sided with me. No chopping.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really nitty. You made your preflop decision, their subsequent chop doesn't affect you, it's just sour grapes to do this.

-DeathDonkey

[andyfox]

I don't think it's sour grapes. Some guys have this agreement, so they are able to enter the pot with greater impunity than other players knowing they can subsequently make a deal with the big blind. I'm as easy-going as they come at the table, and I'll object to this every time.