Trip KKK's on river, me and Perry disagree.

[Perry Friedman]

[ QUOTE ]
Perry - nice to have you participating in the forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

My pleasure. It's always nice to talk about actual poker and discuss hands and thought processes. That is really why I play those low limit games. Unfortunately, RGP is a vast wasteland these days, and discussing in chat online tends to be too limiting due to the temporal restrictions.

[Perry Friedman]

BTW, for those who say I whine a lot, I won't disagree that a lot of times I chastise players when I think they made a bad play, but I do so whether I win or lose the hand, or even if I am uninvolved.

For the record, below is the actual dialogue from the table after the hand in question. I don't think this sounded like berating or whining, although I will freely admit that this was actually pretty good behaviour for me [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img].

<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: I am shocked you bet with only trips on the end
<font color="blue">Heresy</font>: lol
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: given my boar
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: with my showing 3 diamonds
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: unless I somehow hit 2 pair
<font color="blue">Heresy</font>: that's probably my short-handed nlhe mindset taking over
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: you are either getting raised or I fold
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: If I hit a flush or straight
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: I am calling or raising
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: if I only have 1 pair and can't beat K's
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: I am folding
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: So no value there
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: unless, as it turned out
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: I had the unfortunate luck to hit 2 pair
<font color="blue">Heresy</font>: So my bet did have SOME value in it, then
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: But generally, that river bet is lose only
<font color="blue">Heresy</font>: of course, given the action, your call with 2pr was probably marginal at best anyway
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: You can lose money, but can't make nay
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: true
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: But I've seen you bluff before :0)
<font color="blue">Heresy</font>: call it a bet for metagame, then
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: Well, you know I am not folding anything that beats trips
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: so we can rule out any fold equity
<font color="blue">Heresy</font>: lol bluffing with trips was def not my intention there
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: the question is do you get called /raised by hands that beat you
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: and do you get called by anything you beat
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: and how likely are each of those
<font color="blue">Heresy</font>: no, the question is do i get called by worse hands often enough to justify betting
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: right
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: with me not showing any pair
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: The kinds of hands I can have
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: that can call or beat you
<font color="blue">Heresy</font>: right
(a small interruption as Hersey brings in for a completion)
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: BTW, NEVER bring in for a completion
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/proLessons.php?lesson=26
(resume original conversation)
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: what are the odds I have 2 pair
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: or trips
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: vs the odds I have a flush or straight
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: you only make money if I have 2 pair or trips
<font color="blue">Heresy</font>: hey, i'm going to post it on 2+2 and see what they have to say too
<font color="red">Perry Friedman</font>: you lose money if i have a flush/straight/boat/quad

[Andy B]

FWIW, I hate strategy discussion at the table. It's just bad for the game. It does not foster the kind of gambling atmosphere that I depend on to keep me in beer and concert tickets.

The fact that you called with two nebbish pair does tend to undermine your argument that our hero can't expect to get called by a worse hand. Especially given that your range of possible hands includes hands as dubious as pocket Eights, Kirk can expect to be paid off by worse hands fairly frequently. Now his bet may only have value because of your perception of him, but it has value nonetheless.

I've read your article. I rarely bring it in for a full bet. Jeffage is perhaps the strongest player on this board and claims that he has never brought it in for a full bet. I think that saying that it is never correct to do so is absurd, however.

[dsaxton]

Perry, I think your analysis ignores the fact that he loses a bet whenever he's beat, not just when he bets and gets called by a flush or straight. In fact, he is actually beat more often when he checks and calls a bet than when he bets out on the river and gets called (assuming you never raise with a flush or straight).

[dsaxton]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate strategy discussion at the table. It's just bad for the game. It does not foster the kind of gambling atmosphere that I depend on to keep me in beer and concert tickets.

[/ QUOTE ]

This made me laugh out loud.

[2461Badugi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, it's also the case that when I do hit my draw, he's likely to lose two bets and not just one

[/ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

unless he fills and then you lose three bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole discussion here is whether he should be betting with only trips. Of course he should bet a full house (and reraise if raised).

[/ QUOTE ]

If he never bets trips, you won't raise with your straight or flush, and he won't get to threebet when he's full. If by betting trips occasionally (or always, if he can bet-fold) he gets you to make a huge mistake by raising a straight or flush, it's definitely worthwhile.

[cgrohman]

Agreed. That's why i wondered why you didn't fold 5th.

[southerndog]

Perry,

I don't wanna be the guy that rips on the known pro on 2+2 , so I want you to realize that I'm just trying to be str8 forward with you.. I have never seen the kind of table coaching go on that you pasted into the thread here. I'm really surprised.

I'd like to add, that just cause you're at a 3.6 table doesn't mean your opponents are clueless. I play in a 3.6 game that has some of the toughest opponents I've played against on the internet.. People like Bluenose, mrbaa, and other's frequent these low stakes games. Not because of incompetency, but for other reason's not related to ineptness.

..

TY, SDog