Congratulations WPEX on dumbest improvement ever

[Tuff_Fish]

[ QUOTE ]


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....but those that don't now think it's evil and will avoid that style of table.
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And your pont is.....?

Tuff

[Palomino]

The point is the same as it has ALWAYS been which is somehow lost on you. There are almost no games going at WPX so if you turn anyone away it is a big detriment to the site. Are you really as thickheaded as you come off in these posts?

[*TT*]

WSEX GM:

I advise that you guys hire a new poker room manager/marketing director. Your attempt to please all the players, all of the time is a classic marketing 101 error, it will doom your poker room at the rate you are going.

For good examples feel free to explore the B&M forum threads about poker room management, live rooms learned long ago to cater to the players who devote the most amount of hours at their tables and are helpful in starting games. Your model flys counter to many of the established rules that are proven over time - not wise.

[omahahahaha]

Absolutely correct TT. You can't please everyone so you should wisely choose to please your bread and butter.

Although I was beating these extreme TAG games for a modest hourly rate, I was only really there for the 100% rake back. The 100% rakeback was good , but I could conceivably make slightly more at other sites even without the 100% but chose to invest the majority of my playing time at WPEX in order to hopefully "grow" the site.

Once they chopped it down to 75% I had to reevaluate. Then there was talk about contributed/dealt, etc. It almost seems like they're going out of their way to alienate the players that were putting tons of hours in.

They probably have good intentions but I think some of the major decisions they are making are lacking of common sense.

It's pretty simple. You don't have to reinvent the wheel at every turn. Just give a quality product and market the crap out of it. And again, common sense will either grow or kill your site. Please don't try and please everyone and listen to every yahoo no matter how much they "sound" like they know what they are talking about.

[BuddyQ]

[ QUOTE ]
WSEX GM:

I advise that you guys hire a new poker room manager/marketing director. Your attempt to please all the players, all of the time is a classic marketing 101 error, it will doom your poker room at the rate you are going.

For good examples feel free to explore the B&M forum threads about poker room management, live rooms learned long ago to cater to the players who devote the most amount of hours at their tables and are helpful in starting games. Your model flys counter to many of the established rules that are proven over time - not wise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this has been said in the WSEX threads many times in many ways by lots of people, but you state the point nicely.

Problem is, GM is somehow oblivious to this most basic idea. Instead, GM is held, with doe-like starry-eyed wonder, in concert with cranks and crackpots like 'tuff_fish,' by some fuzzy vision of a fairy-dwelling alternate reality.

Rational advice from some very smart and experienced cardroom experts mostly falls on deaf ears as the GM stumbles around implementing policies from the inane to the ridiculous.

Who has the power to can the GM, and does HE read these posts?

[DAC_]

Have to admit I was downright shocked when I logged in and saw this had been implemented.

Imagine a newbie signing up, logging in, and being "greeted" by that three paragraph popup screen. Datamining? Hand histories? Tracking? Whether you know it or not? Huh?

I'm still in shock actually... right down to the baffling logos (green arrow for HHs; red minus for none... huh?) and also the illogical leap that no HHs don't simply mean no player names, but no HHs period. Wow.

I'm just extra curious about this, though, since it's just an awful idea all around... the GM even said his people didn't like it and asked for 2p2's thoughts, which were unanimously negative. So... what gives? Seems only the GM backed this idea... why this nitty crusade and why is it preoccupying your agenda when you should be focused on marketing your site??

[Tuff_Fish]

[ QUOTE ]
The point is the same as it has ALWAYS been which is somehow lost on you. There are almost no games going at WPX so if you turn anyone away it is a big detriment to the site. Are you really as thickheaded as you come off in these posts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Who says they are going to turn away? They are just going to decide that the datamining tables are evil and play at the NON datamining tables.

Getting them to turn up in the first place is the trick.

Mr GM, you need better funding and withdrawal methods for US players. Even though I am a fish, I expect to be making big withdrawals and there seems to be big problems there. Not to mention problems getting funding on in the first place.

Do it like PokerStars and have Echecks.

That and fix the few remaining big trouble spots in your software and I am in. (On the non datamining tables of course.)

Tuff

PS Please allow the occasional name change. I would love to start play on your site as "Tuff_Fish" but it does get old after a while.

[Euphoricism]

HUDs are going to be the downfall of internet poker. They need to go, or within 10 years, internet poker will be very, very dead. HUDs cause the fish to bust too fast. HUDs cause what should be marginal losers to become marginal winners by taking a significant aspect of poker out of the game.

If you want internet poker to survive for the next 10 years, you have to protect the fish. Removing hand histories altogether is indeed the BEST way to do that.

However, there are concerns with this approach. Namely, we lose the ability to keep the poker site itself honest. No more databases of 500k hands we can run statistical analysis on to make sure the games are fair. This is pretty important for keeping poker alive too. I don't trust the sites to stay honest if they don't have to answer to their players.

So there needs to be some compromise therein. The HUDs need to go, but the statistical tracking needs to stay. Its a very difficult compromise to reach, and that I dont think anyone really has any good answers to do it.

Removing names from HHs is god, but it isn't the solution. It stops you from datamining, but your hud still works (deducing other peoples stats is trivial if you know your position at the table).

It's a tough situation, and I applaud WSEX for taking a long-term approach to the problem, but removing hand histories altogether is not the answer. But I don't know any other way to make HUDs stop working, while keeping our statistical tracking abilities.

The only method I can think of is the complete removal of hand histories coupled with in-site statistical tracking. It's not perfect (sites *might* be able to fudge them) but i do believe it's the best answer.

And if WSEX is planning on doing that, I'll move there when they do.

As to whether they can financially afford to be this forward-thinking, well, that's up to them.

[Q_and_A]

Is there at least a working program that shows mucked hole cards at showdown without having to click through the hand histories?

[Mason Hellmuth]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just extra curious about this, though, since it's just an awful idea all around... the GM even said his people didn't like it and asked for 2p2's thoughts, which were unanimously negative. So... what gives? Seems only the GM backed this idea... why this nitty crusade and why is it preoccupying your agenda when you should be focused on marketing your site??

[/ QUOTE ]
It's obvious.

WSEX GM

equals

Tuff_Fish