3/6 Not Exactly My Favorite River Card...

[Harv72b]

I'm actually done with my morning session, but still one-tabling because this game is so darn juicy. Lots of bad plays, lots of big pots, etc. So of course I'm stuck for like 10 BBs as the cards are dealt.

The cast:

UTG - Absolutely horrible. PT has him at 63/15/1 over around 200 hands, all at this table. His preflop standards basically consist of one or more cards & he has a penchant for coldcalling with offsuit broadway/rag hands. He does understand position, to the extent that he opens his range even more when the raise came from late position. He's mentioned "pot odds" in the table chat, but I don't think he really knows what they are. Postflop at least he's fairly normal, although he'll chase any draw (including single overcard) to the river & generally shows down any pair. He does appear to have some respect for my game, though.
UTG+1 - Dangerous multi-tabler. I have him at 18/9/1.5 over 150, but I've played against him before & been impressed with his postflop ability. Not great, but definitely well above average. He is tricky, and his LRR behind UTG may indeed be a big pocket pair.
CO - 22/8/1 over 400-ish. He's playing like crap in this game, making bizarre late street bluff raises, calling down with bottom pair/no kicker, and chasing gutshot draws to the river. He has no respect whatsoever for UTG's play & has sunken down to his level in an effort to bust him. I've been joining in with some others in needling him a bit on the table chat after a particularly brutal runner runner suckout he put on one of the solid players at the table. Nothing rude or mean-spirited, but I think he's gunning for me now too.
BB - Probably my least favorite opponent on FTP, and especially to have on my left. He's a solid enough LAGTAG, 25/14/1.5 over 2500+, capable of all sorts of moves both pre- & postflop (and generally times them well), and uses position very well. Luckily he just folds on the flop so you wasted your time reading this.
Me - I'm not playing my best poker this morning, but I'm not playing too badly either. The table has seen me open with 97s from the CO & then win a big pot off UTG (in this hand) after flopping bottom two. They also saw me bet/3bet the flop in what wound up being a heads up pot after a J34, 2-spaded flop. My opponent folded to my bet after an offsuit A fell on the turn, claiming to have KJ. I told him what I had (6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]), so the table knows that I'm quite capable of fastplaying a draw.

That's taken care of, now what the **** do I do on this river in a monster pot?

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero caps</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (17.5SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises</font>, CO calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (13.75BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

River: (16.75BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero vomits with rage and...?

[fishyak]

Harv on tilt? I can't believe that you don't know what you have to do. CHECK. Anything else is spew. You have 4 cards out against you and any trash heart just got turned into cash. A very likely holding of UTG+1 is either AA or KK and quite possibly a heart included.

Facing one bet on the return = call. Facing a cold call on the return, I'd fold. Your position stinks and you could wind up facing a 3 bet or another cold call.

You are more than good enough to figure this one out. This one is a burr under your saddle.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
Harv on tilt? I can't believe that you don't know what you have to do. CHECK. Anything else is spew. You have 4 cards out against you and any trash heart just got turned into cash. A very likely holding of UTG+1 is either AA or KK and quite possibly a heart included.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm really not sure if it's that simple. Hence, the post.

[Mr. Orange]

I can't see how bettng can be right here. I check/call the river but fold if it's 2 bets. If CO is as bad as you say I would probably even overcall if UTG leads and he calls.
The tough question seems to be what if UTG checks and CO leads given that UTG is described as tricky. I would call in that case then throw my mouse in the vomit pile on the ground when I get C/R'd.

[fishyak]

Well, as first to act, your dealer will give you the two choices, check or bet. If you bet, A of hearts is going to raise you and K of hearts should. The pot is big enough, you would need to call that raise and even betting out, you could wind up facing a cold call back to you. Facing two opponents and your position make a BIG difference here. You could easily wind up in a squeeze play between a smart and a stupid player. And ,if you bet and are not facing a heart, you probably do not even get called. No upside to the bet. I do not see any line of reasoning that backs betting out on the river.

Your position, that river card, and two opponents leave you cornered. Check and puke.

[Harv72b]

Eh...let me just cut to the chase, then. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Okay, I did end up betting on the river. I thought as soon as I did it (and I still tend to agree) that it was a mistake, like y'all are saying. But as I was going back over this hand later, I thought of one potential reason to bet in this scenario, and I was just curious if I was totally rationalizing my play after the fact or if maybe it wasn't too wrong after all.

[James.]

an argument could be made, based on CO's description, you can keep the river at one bet more often by putting it there yourself. plus, it has the added benefit of getting value out of non [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]/straight hands that would possibly check behind.

edited b/c i asked a stupid question.

[shane88888]

The pot is very nice. 16.75BB. And now I'm thinking out loud...........

UTG+1 has AA or KK. Not capping the flop makes sense for him. Hero capped PF and three-banged the flop. Probably puts hero on a set or A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Of course, this is useless if he's seen you cap light recently. If UTG+1 has the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], does he raise the turn and go for a free showdown? I don't see why not. If he has AA or KK, he wants CO out of the hand (with a million draws out there), and even if he's called, the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is in his hand anyway. If CO is playing that badly, he could raise and CO would call anyway. Then again, he's on many tables, so who knows how much he's paying attention.

The other option is UTG+1 went limp/RR with something like KQs, JTs, QJs, etc. But he can't have that hand in hearts and is looking to boat up. If he hit the flush, would he have raised the turn? The worst case is A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and he wants to keep CO in the hand and is willing to let you draw cheap with a potential set, or he hopes you have the K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I doubt he would limp/RR with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] but who knows.

CO: With a flop coldcall and no turn raise, hearts don't make sense. With a flop coldcall and a turn call, T9 or something of the like makes sense. But I'm not going to think too hard about this one.

So...........

Check/check through: Would be very nice since this means you're winning more than your fair share. Isn't going to happen though.

Check/fold: You lose. You get nothing. Good day sir. Actually, more often than not you'll save a bet but you're not winning the 17.

Check/raise: Interesting, granted the action doesn't go bet/call since you're never folding two people here. I think betting out is more likely to get the CO to fold. Getting CO to fold is huge since he's more likely to have a small heart.

Check/call: A bet from UTG+1's two black aces and a fold from CO would be nice. CO ever folding would be very nice. You'll be getting 17.75:1 on your call.

Bet: UTG+1 has either the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or probably nothing. UTG+1 raising with big [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] doesn't make sense with CO in hand and he knows Hero could bet in bet/fold mode. CO probably isn't folding any heart for one bet.

Bet/fold: You can probably fold in peace.

The sick madman line: Bet out, UTG+1 raises K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], CO folds, Hero 3-bets. UTG+1 needs to have the K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or air AND be in raise/fold mode one in six times for this play to work. But there's no reason for UTG+1 to raise a big heart unless he thinks CO is really on the monkey tilt.

[fishyak]

Well, the real issue is how much did betting out cost you? If you got away with 1 bet, it cost you nothing. The pot was big enough, you had to call for 1BB. But if it cost you more or you folded after paying that BB, then ouch.

I admit that I didn't think of bet/fold as a strategy. (PS I hate bet/fold as a strategy, particularly live.)

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
edited b/c i asked a stupid question.



[/ QUOTE ]

If I edited out every stupid question I ever asked, people probably wouldn't think I was so stupid.