5CD Question about Value Bets/Raises

[LLCoolDave]

I just had a phenomenal run on PL50 on Stars, getting great cards and good payoff. However, I'm definitly uncertain if I extracted the most value out of my Hands, so I'd like to discuss some of them.

#1
UTG Raises to 1.50, MP Calls, CO and BU Fold. On my SB I look at 888 and raise to 5.50, hoping to take the pot down right away but not minding a call too much. UTG calls.

I draw 2 (I think it might have been wiser to draw 1 in this case from a psychological view, but it was time to mix it up a bit and draw 2), UTG was pat.

I manage to spike a miracle full house, drawing 2 9s. Great spot for a check raise, so I check. UTG bets pot. This bet actually kind of scared me. It wasn't a smallish bet trying to be paid off but rather a big "I have you beat even IF you filled up" kind of bet. I simply called, UTG showed down a wheel.

Afterwards someone asked why I didn't reraise with my Full House. Well, that large bet was kind of scary to star with, but my Hand was pretty much face up. If I reraise, I have a Full House at least, and would likely only be called by a better hand. I feel good about not reraising, but at the same time I wonder if your average PL50 player would have paid me off with a Hand I could beat as a crying call enough to warrant a raise there.

#2

UTG limps, CO raises to 1.50, BU and SB Fold, I find JJJ and raise to 3.50 from the BB. UTG calls, CO folds.

I draw one, UTG draws 1. I don't improve. I figured UTG to be a decent player and put him on trips here as well.

Should I be leading out here or go for check/call? Turns out UTG was steaming from my recent run of good cards and called with an OESD and checked behind, so there's no value lost in this specific hand. But generally speaking, how should I play small, medium and big trips when most likely facing other trips when I'm OOP?

#3 Freeplay in the BB, MP and SB limped. I draw 4 to an Ace and end up with a pair of Aces, the other two each drew 3. SB checks. Should I lead out here or go for a check/call?

[andyblub]

Here are my thoughts on these situations:

#1
A big bet post-draw from a pat hand doesn't necessarily mean that he has a top pat hand such as a FH. It's more likely he put you correctly on trips and thought you would call his post draw bet unimproved to see if he was bluffing. In my opinion, with 8s full this is a clear check-raise, or you raise into his hand, he will most likely call you.

#2
I wouldn't put UTG on trips at all here. If he had low trips such as 222-999 he would raise to narrow down the field. Only if he had top trips like QQQ-AAA, he might limp in, but then he would definitely respond your raise with a reraise. Usually at these levels a 1 card draw means a draw (as it was in this situation). As you said, checking is OK, he either had you beat with a made hand or folded a busted draw anyway.

#3
In this situation I usually check and fold if it is raised to me.

[LLCoolDave]

[ QUOTE ]
Here are my thoughts on these situations:

#1
A big bet post-draw from a pat hand doesn't necessarily mean that he has a top pat hand such as a FH. It's more likely he put you correctly on trips and thought you would call his post draw bet unimproved to see if he was bluffing. In my opinion, with 8s full this is a clear check-raise, or you raise into his hand, he will most likely call you.


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I never said the big raise meant that he has a great pat hand. I was just confused because the bet was much too big for me to pay off with unimproved trips, so the bet just looked too big to me. A stop&go bluff just seems a tad too sophisticated for those stacks, I do give him credit for a pat hand here, and I know I am easily ahead of a pat range. I don't see how the check/raise is clear here, as I don't know how likely he will actually pay me off with less than a medium Full House, I think that decision is much mor marginal. Let's see if somebody else thinks the check/raise is much clearer than I figure it to be right now. I don't see any point in leading into him at all, that could just put me in a much harder decision and seems to even lose value to check/calling there.

[ QUOTE ]

#2
I wouldn't put UTG on trips at all here. If he had low trips such as 222-999 he would raise to narrow down the field. Only if he had top trips like QQQ-AAA, he might limp in, but then he would definitely respond your raise with a reraise. Usually at these levels a 1 card draw means a draw (as it was in this situation). As you said, checking is OK, he either had you beat with a made hand or folded a busted draw anyway.


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Well, yeah, his play didn't make much sense to me, but he hadn't even played a draw against a single raise in the hour I sat at the table, why would he do so for a raise and a reraise? His play doesn't make too much sense with trips either, but it was the most reasonable hand I had put him on. I still wonder how to play trips vs trips situations OOP unimproved, seems like that's something that can go very wrong.

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#3
In this situation I usually check and fold if it is raised to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I don't always call anyway, but often times the Limper will take a stab at the pot with an unimproved high pair, so if the opponent is someone who does I definitly like to catch his bet. I just wonder if it's better to call the bet or lead out myself to take down the pot. I'm not talking about calling a potsize bet here but rather the usual minbet many people make after the draw. I'm definitly more likely to fold when someone bets OOP or into a larger field or seems to be a tight player who rarely bets.

[Idolatrous]

#1 - I'm going to be check raising my Full House. Chances of 88899 being behind is not very likely, and chances of someone at .25/.50 paying you with a worse pat is very likely. If you're beat, take your lumps and buy back in. It's a cash game after all.

#2 - I'm putting a limp call on a draw here almost every time. So I'm simply going to check and call or check and fold if for some reason I figure he made the draw.

As for trips vs trips... depends how high your trips are. If you put him on trips here, generally your JJJ is going to be ahead and you will be safe to bet. But a check/call is not necessarily a bad play either.

#3 - There is 0 value in betting out. You only get called if you lose, there is a chance you get reraised now you have no choice but to fold. A check call is an option sometimes, but generally check folding is going to be the play here.

[Big Limpin]

I agree with all of this [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[LLCoolDave]

On second thought, I have no idea how I could even consider leading out in Hand #3 and it's not something I remember ever doing. There might be spots to bluff bet there, but certainly not for value.

I suppose I underestimated the likeliness of your avarage PL50 player calling in #1, looks like I missed some value there. I planned to check raise there when the potsize bet slightly offset me and I started to think, figuring that even that average player over there should see that I have a full house or quads when I reraise his potsize bet there and was pretty unlikely to get paid off, so it wasn't worth the risk. Suppose I'll snap check/raise that spot in the future then.

As for #2, people seem to put him on a draw collectively, so I probably should do the same in the future. I just had never seen him play a draw against a raise in the hour I sat there, and this time it was for a raise and a reraise, and not even closing the action.

[Idolatrous]

[ QUOTE ]
I just had never seen him play a draw against a raise in the hour I sat there, and this time it was for a raise and a reraise, and not even closing the action.

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What could he really have here that he's drawing 1 like that? The only real option other than a draw is a very slight chance he has quads. I don't think he would flat call with QQQ through AAA and in my opinion that would be a mistake on his part if he did.

It is possible he could have small 2 pair here, but not likely. The only real hand you can put him on with the way he's playing it is a draw.

[greggg230]

I'm leading out in hand 2 generally. People do limp/call with two pair quite a bit.

[BBQbowser]

[ QUOTE ]
I just had a phenomenal run on PL50 on Stars, getting great cards and good payoff. However, I'm definitly uncertain if I extracted the most value out of my Hands, so I'd like to discuss some of them.

#1
UTG Raises to 1.50, MP Calls, CO and BU Fold. On my SB I look at 888 and raise to 5.50, hoping to take the pot down right away but not minding a call too much. UTG calls.

I draw 2 (I think it might have been wiser to draw 1 in this case from a psychological view, but it was time to mix it up a bit and draw 2), UTG was pat.

I manage to spike a miracle full house, drawing 2 9s. Great spot for a check raise, so I check. UTG bets pot. This bet actually kind of scared me. It wasn't a smallish bet trying to be paid off but rather a big "I have you beat even IF you filled up" kind of bet. I simply called, UTG showed down a wheel.

Afterwards someone asked why I didn't reraise with my Full House. Well, that large bet was kind of scary to star with, but my Hand was pretty much face up. If I reraise, I have a Full House at least, and would likely only be called by a better hand. I feel good about not reraising, but at the same time I wonder if your average PL50 player would have paid me off with a Hand I could beat as a crying call enough to warrant a raise there.

#2

UTG limps, CO raises to 1.50, BU and SB Fold, I find JJJ and raise to 3.50 from the BB. UTG calls, CO folds.

I draw one, UTG draws 1. I don't improve. I figured UTG to be a decent player and put him on trips here as well.

Should I be leading out here or go for check/call? Turns out UTG was steaming from my recent run of good cards and called with an OESD and checked behind, so there's no value lost in this specific hand. But generally speaking, how should I play small, medium and big trips when most likely facing other trips when I'm OOP?

#3 Freeplay in the BB, MP and SB limped. I draw 4 to an Ace and end up with a pair of Aces, the other two each drew 3. SB checks. Should I lead out here or go for a check/call?

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#1 Check/raise pot, you are ahead of his range.

#2 Bet pot, you are ahead of his range.

#3 Check/fold against most opps.

[TomTom]

#1 I view pat hands as if they are straights, flushes, or boats. If I get jammed with a straight I tend to fold, with a flush I tend to call, and with a boat I bet. Simple and seems to work for me.

With a boat I’d be all in. If you look at the hand from his chair he still looks good so maybe he over bets some.

#2 Lead it out, or just draw 2. You draw 1 for deception to get a call from 2 pair, you paid for him to call so make a bet he can call.

#3 Check it down. I rarely find AA gut here, I prefer check/call and check/fold to putting any money on this hand.