Intentional miscalling of hand at showdown

[KenProspero]

It's tough to prove a 'miscalled' hand, even though everyone knows what she's doing.

However, when she pulled the trick with the AA in the BB, I may have called the floor, and mentioned that she's been angle shooting, miscalling hands, etc.

See how the floor handles it -- if the floor is sympathetic, every time she tries to pull this, call the floor again.

If the floor isn't sympathetic, ask for a new table or find a different casino.

[pfapfap]

Note that this is a separate issue from the case where someone miscalls a hand without tabling. She shows her cards to everybody, therefore her cards speak more loudly than she does. I don't think anybody would have a case for claiming the pot after mucking to her showdown.

[RR]

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youtalkfunny,

When you say that the rule is that the angleshooter automatically loses the pot, where are you getting this info? I'm guessing from robert's rules of poker, but not every casino has the same rules. Do you know if this applies at commerce or hollywood park? It'd be sweet if it did. I hate these angleshooting sleezebags. Of course, I've never been fooled by one though.

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This is a standard rule. I don't think it is in Robert's. It generally does apply in LA as they still have rules for lowball and this rule originated in lowball.

[Demonic1]

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However, when I brought this up to the floor away from the table as I was leaving (I didn't identify the player) as a "hypothetical", he told me it was the player's responsibility to protect their hand so the angle-shooter gets the pot in cases 1 and 2

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I just can't adjust to this simple fact of life: 99% of the floormen in this world don't know the rules.

I should expect floormen to blow this one (like the floorman mentioned above). I shouldn't lose my patience when it happens.

But it drives me so nuts that I'm seriously considering another profession.

It gets worse when I explain to people, "If a player intentionally miscalls his hand, causing opponent to muck, opponent gets the pot," and NOBODY BELIEVES ME. They think I made it up.

They go ask a floorman, and the floorman never heard of such a thing, so either he's wrong or I'm wrong. Well, he's wearing a tie, and I'm not, so his vote counts for more than mine, even though he's never read a written set of rules in his life.

Wow, I'm getting angry just typing this. Does anybody know of a good-paying job for a lazy, non-college-graduate who sucks at selling things and refuses to wear a suit? Yeah, I didn't think so. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ] Well, I know from experience that it IS the players responsibility to protect his own hand. If no-one complains to the management about the angleshooter management cann't do anything about it. Most management,floors included will find a way to talk to this person and punish them should they continue BUT there is generally no written rule against it in most establishments. Poker is ideally a "morals & ethics" game, meaning that many of the "rules" people spek of are not actually rules in an established room but a moral & ethical responsibility of the players themseves to play in a fair manner. ie; not intentionally miscalling ones hand. I personally feel pity on at least 1/3 of the floor people out there for putting up with all the "experts" that seem to know all the rules but not the ethics and love playing with people that care enough about fair play to get mad about it. Many people simply have misconceptions between home games and established rooms,even though most experienced floor people will try to enforce ethics & morals they usually don't have the backing of written rules.

[PantsOnFire]

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1. Deliberatly miscalling your hand

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Woman in OP says "I thought the river [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] was a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]"

Nobody, even dealers, ever misread the board. So it may be hard to prove that the player "deliberately" miscalled his/her hand.

But then, I misread my hand once. Thought I made a small straight on the turn. When called on the river, I declared "Straight" and my opponent mucked. I was shocked when I saw I had nothing. Not even a pair. I told the dealer to just give my opponent the pot.

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We all appreciate your integrity but for those who aren't so ethical, don't you want a rule in place where they are forced to give up the pot rather than rely on their charity?

Personally, if a player overcalls their hand, causing another player to muck, they should have to give up the pot because they probably have a crap hand and were beaten. I don't care if they did it deliberately or not.

[growlers]

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I do agree with you. However in the case of the OP we don't know if the floor doesn't know the rules or was just throwing out an answer to get this guy to leave. Floorpeople who answer player's hypothetical questions are just asking for trouble. Why because the player is going to go and try to cause the hypothetical to happen, but when the floor gets to the table he may find the situation to be different than the hypothetical and rule differently.

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This is possible, but there were two other dealers sitting at the table at the time where I was talking to the floor, and this is a recent dealer-turned-floor so he is trying to be more helpful than most. So in other words I think he was trying to give me a real answer.
I do agree floors rarely want to answer these questions away from the table. I'd probably be the same way after getting burned a few times.

[growlers]

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If it doesn't bother you to take her down a bit just say at the table at showdown she's done this in the past. Surely if she gets called out on it the whole table will be more careful in future if they play again with her.

I know you aren't the poker police but it clearly bothers you?

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I agree, this bitch is bad for the game. I would call her out every time she pulled a move. For example, next time she pulls the big blind 'trick', I'd tell the table that last time she did this she had AA. Everytime she calls out her hand I'd say "careful, she has a habit of mis-calling her hands". Do it enough and hopefully she'll leave. Or she'll go on tilt and try to beat you out of pots, so value bet her until she's broke.

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I am reluctant to police the lady.
She is a regular and plays with some friends there, sometimes late at night she will have two or three friends at the table (only table going) so I don't have much interest in making multiple enemies in this type of situation. That's gotta be -EV --- known angleshooter and friends all ganging up on you.

Also, she has some other "moves" that are probably not clear angleshots that since I know what they mean - I can exploit. I know of one instance last night where I for sure saved a river bet not value betting my two pair because I knew she made a flush on the river (a real one this time, lol)

I do wonder whether I have a "responsibility" to some extent, I don't understand why the dealers don't have a talk with her, they may just think she is trying to be cute miscalling her hand since they are only dealing to her for 30 minutes at a time.

[BigBluffer]

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I don't understand why the dealers don't have a talk with her, they may just think she is trying to be cute miscalling her hand since they are only dealing to her for 30 minutes at a time.

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Is she a better-than-average tipper? The answer to your question, quoted above, may lie in her tipping proclivity.

[DesertCat]

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I am reluctant to police the lady.
She is a regular and plays with some friends there, sometimes late at night she will have two or three friends at the table (only table going) so I don't have much interest in making multiple enemies in this type of situation. That's gotta be -EV --- known angleshooter and friends all ganging up on you.


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Sounds like this room isn't getting a lot of business. Might be because honest joes looking to relax after a hard days work with a square game get tired of the angle-shooting and incompetent floor and go elsewhere?

If this is your card room, you have a responsibility to yourself and every other player to see it is run right. How aggressive you want to be is up to you, but if you call her on mis-calling her hands enough she'll at least quit doing it and that will improve your game (some). Or you can remain happy playing against oily angle shooters who run off all the fish.

[growlers]

Well, this is Red Rock Station - the limit games took a hit when they raised the rake - it is slowly coming back now that they reversed that decision. NL does great there. The floor is usually pretty good, and the dealers usually great, but there do seem consistantly reluctant to go after the regulars on stuff, which pisses me off.

I play regularly, am a winning player at limit games there, but am not playing primarily for the money. So I don't really care all that much about her action's meta-effects on the room at large. And she doesn't play 8-16 anyway (but I've been playing 4-8 lately since the 8-16 is only going ~4x a week lately.) I don't see any real advantage to me going after her when the dealers and floor won't, if I was a grinding pro I might feel differently about the situation. Maybe I am in the wrong on this, I dunno?