Ray Zee's underbet

[ahnuld]

I was going through some old 2+2 threads when I came across this. http://www.twoplustwo.com/digests/hi..._msg.html#2740

It's R.Z. talking about the underbet, and how effective it is in his arsenal. I've neevr really considered using it in my game until I came across it, but upon reflection I might. Sam basically does the same thing, and it works wonders for him. Fish often do this strategy and if they hit some hands end up with a big stack (before they invariably lose it all).

Do other HSNL players do this, or incorporate it into their games from time to time? Any thoughts on the pros and cons wouldbe appreciated too.

[ObnxNole]

NO.

[AlwaysAir]

[ QUOTE ]
NO.

[/ QUOTE ]

nice contribution diane

~ btw I'm reading it

AA

[Parlay Slow]

AlwaysAir,

Thank you for the update!

[KRANTZ]

I haven't read all the responses in that thread, but I would think for this strategy to be effective, you'd need your opponents to play back at you enough with bluffs (when you have showdownable hands) to compensate for the value youre missing when they c/c you down with mid pair for 1/5th of the amount of money they would have c/c you down with had you bet 2/3-3/4 pot.

Conversely, however, if you've got a good enough handle on your opponents, I bet you could effectively bet small on the flop (w both air and strong hands) to "see where you're at"; you have the option to fold, instead of being pot stuck, as Tommy Angelo implies, and then, assuming you make it to the turn, can adjust your bet size for more money accordingly (both for value, when you have a good hand, and as a bluff, since your opponent just called the flop and did not c/r you).

This is a really interesting post, as I've often experimented with underbets when playing short stacks (I want to bet enough where I can get them to fold but lose the least when they c/r, or on c-bets, where I want to bet as small as possible while still having FE, but not too small, where I would induce a weak c/r and can't proceed with my hand).

I'm thinking that this would inherently work best with 100bb stacks and shallower; unless your opponent is a total fish and will pay off your deep stack overbets, you're going to need to play a considerably larger pot when bluffing or value betting when you're deeper.

[fish2plus2]

I use underbets frequently, and when I post them people usuaully rip me on them and dont like it.

[ahnuld]

Kane, I think there is a good time and place for them, and the last hand you posted with those particular game dynamics was a perfect spot. Can you post some of your thoughts on the underbet and what it accomplishes/ how your opponents react?

[pete fabrizio]

I think part of the reason underbets are so disfavored among the 2+2 crowd is that internet players (even very good ones) tend to be more afraid of wading through murky waters. Underbets can be very effective against extremely readable opponents.

[El Diablo]

a,

I think you will find this an especially common trait among many players who spent a good amount of time playing in the higher UB games.

[Matt Flynn]

I use underbetting a lot, especially against weaker opposition.