Couples with differing views on religion

[LooseCaller]

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agreed, i'm not trying to argue the value of "the church" or anything like that. I'm not even saying they are right to believe in god. What I am saying is that those people were most likely smarter than everyone in this thread and they believed in god, which refutes the *uppity* atheist argument that anyone who believes in god is just a brainwashed idiot who worships an invisible man in the sky.

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shrug, I don't see it as much. I think a lot of Christians consider any criticisms of Christanity persecution / douchebaggery.

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A lot of christians do think this for sure. But what you and others are doing is calling anyone who believes in god an idiot, which is simply not true. your criticism of christianity sounds like a republican's criticism of gay people despite the fact you should have a much better argument than the gay bashing republican.

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this comparison is not at all a legitimate one. because being gay is a genetic trait whereas religious belief is a social construction. confronting people for developing flawed and ridiculous ideas (Christianity) is entirely fair game since they have a choice in the matter. persecuting someone for sexual orientation is akin to racism and sexism, not religious intolerance.


i think a very important point one can realize from this list of names is not that a lot of smart people believe in God, but that the societies they lived in were church-centric enough to indoctrinate geniuses like the people you listed into believing in invisible people in the sky. That's why it's a very dangerous thing to allow your children to be brought to church if you're an atheist. childhood indoctrination is an incredibly potent weapon.

[Dilznoofus]

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The point was that your posts came off somewhat douchey. I don't even consider myself a devout Catholic, so I could give a crap about criticisms of the faith. But, I open up this thread to read what others have to say, because I find myself in a similar situation. Five posts or so in, you interject your opinion on Christianity being a fundamental lie. It added nothing to the discussion regarding the OP and was douchey...period.

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PRE asked a question:

"Religious beliefs aside, how could having your children be church-goers for the early part of their lives and then allowing them to make a choice when they're capable of doing so have any detrimental effects on them?"

Nath gave an answer. Can't see how that makes him douchey.

[Subfallen]

"Who cares, different religions...I guess the only time it's an issue is if you have a baby, deciding how you're going to raise the child. Which would not even be an issue for us, because we'd be...honest!

You know, just say, like: Mommy is one of the chosen people, and Daddy believes that Jesus is...MAGIC!"

[dragonystic]

taking children to church is child abuse

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[RustedCorpse]

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taking children to church is child abuse

$0.02

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QFT

When you say atheists are as close minded as religious zealots, I'm inclined to point out the following, common, argument:


If I am someone you care about. Someone in your family. And I tell you there is a Golden Monkey in my backyard. Every night this Golden Monkey digs out, has a cup of tea with me, talks about what I should do to save the world, then goes back and buries himself by day. What would you say to me?

Assuming I was stable in all other regards you would want me to dig up this gold monkey and show you no?

If we dig up the whole back yard with nothing, yet I still persist, would you not question my sanity?

This is why atheists seem close minded. Essentially people of faith are daily saying there is an invisible entity in the sky in control of the entire universe, with no further backing than the statement “I believe.”


Raising children with religion (taking most western faiths) teaches them at the most impressionable time in their lives, that they should be adhering to a moral code printed in an endlessly translated and interpreted book, thousands of years old.

Detach and look at it; a freshly born child does not ascribe to any religion. They have to be taught faith. It is a social modification.

Just seems more sensible to teach children that the reality they have is theirs to enjoy and influence.

[Dilznoofus]

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"Who cares, different religions...I guess the only time it's an issue is if you have a baby, deciding how you're going to raise the child. Which would not even be an issue for us, because we'd be...honest!

You know, just say, like: Mommy is one of the chosen people, and Daddy believes that Jesus is...MAGIC!"

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[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Sarah Silverman

[dylan's alias]

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taking children to church is child abuse

$0.02

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QFT

When you say atheists are as close minded as religious zealots, I'm inclined to point out the following, common, argument:


If I am someone you care about. Someone in your family. And I tell you there is a Golden Monkey in my backyard. Every night this Golden Monkey digs out, has a cup of tea with me, talks about what I should do to save the world, then goes back and buries himself by day. What would you say to me?

Assuming I was stable in all other regards you would want me to dig up this gold monkey and show you no?

If we dig up the whole back yard with nothing, yet I still persist, would you not question my sanity?

This is why atheists seem close minded. Essentially people of faith are daily saying there is an invisible entity in the sky in control of the entire universe, with no further backing than the statement “I believe.”


Raising children with religion (taking most western faiths) teaches them at the most impressionable time in their lives, that they should be adhering to a moral code printed in an endlessly translated and interpreted book, thousands of years old.

Detach and look at it; a freshly born child does not ascribe to any religion. They have to be taught faith. It is a social modification.

Just seems more sensible to teach children that the reality they have is theirs to enjoy and influence.

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The problem here is that you are automatically equating those who have some belief in religion with fundamentalist Christians who base everything on a literal interpretation of some book. There's a huge realm in between where most people who believe in religion fit in. Trust me, my beliefs have no impact on my complete faith in evolution, the scientific method and any other thing that you would call "rational." A strict athiest who equates religion with mental retardation (OP) is just as rigid in their "non-belief" as a fundamentalist Christian who believes that the world was created in 6 days.

As for the douchiness - you haven't seen anyone defend religion in this thread by suggesting that non-believers are morons, but there have been plenty of suggestions that those who have a religion are necessarily of lesser stock. Introducing children to the world that you grew up in (and seem to like enough to want to pass on) is in no way child abuse.

Aside, this whole debate proves my initial point which was that religious differences are a major (possibly insurmountable) obstacle, especially when children are involved.

As for my personal beliefs, I am a somewhat practicing Jew. I don't keep kosher, I don't keep the sabbath. My family gets together to go to synogogue to celebrate the major holidays and that has been a positive part of my life. I'm excited and proud to be raising my son in a similar environment to the one I grew up in. Other than that one part of me, I have more in common with the atheists/agnostics than I do with the religious fundamentalists. But the athiest/agnostic camp is all to happy to lump me in with the bible-beaters because it fits better with their simplistic black/white, I'm superior view of the world.

[RustedCorpse]

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The problem here is that you are automatically equating those who have some belief in religion with fundamentalist Christians who base everything on a literal interpretation of some book. There's a huge realm in between where most people who believe in religion fit in. Trust me, my beliefs have no impact on my complete faith in evolution, the scientific method and any other thing that you would call "rational." A strict athiest who equates religion with mental retardation (OP) is just as rigid in their "non-belief" as a fundamentalist Christian who believes that the world was created in 6 days.


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The difference, and I'm not trying to be argumentative, is that with atheism there is no "belief". Belief is the problem.

It's not an issue of being close minded. but quite simply someone who states they are Greek Orthodox Christian, or Christian is stating in no uncertain terms that they believe people come back from the dead, in at least in one case. And I seem to have solid ground in reality saying that such a belief, and teaching it, is insane.

If you teach your children "I don't know exactly but here is what I think...." that's one thing. Formal religion doesn't do that, there is the implication of knowledge without proof.

This is why atheism comes off as so closed minded to you. As far as "faith" is concerned from an atheist standpoint, there is no difference between an Islam fundamentalist and a modern gay Christian man. Both are stating a positive belief in something that cannot be proven, or supported. Obviously there is a difference in their behavior, but not in the "overall" belief system from an outside point of view.

I'm not trying to derail the thread, I'm trying to explain why religion as a taught behavior is child abuse and that to call it such is not the same as fundamental religious practice.

In ANY other area of discussion you could call someone out and say "Why do you think that? What proof do you have?" But magic has a special stand-off position that anyone calling it out as such is labeled as close minded.

[tarheeljks]

how is there no belief in atheism?

edit: let me clarify, how can you say atheism lacks a belief? isn't it based on the belief that god does not exist?

[tarheeljks]

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I think indoctrinating children into organized Christianity does a great deal more harm than good, and I wouldn't marry someone who wanted to raise our children in an organized religion. It is that big a deal to me.

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this is predicated upon the notion that your own belief is superior, in which case you are doing the same thing as the parents who expose their kids to organized religion. how can you objectively argue that raising a child in a non-religious environment > than having them go to church every sunday. in this situation, not showing them anything is still showing them something.