A very interesting ethics situation and a Bellagio Floor ruling - Page 8

bav · #71 10-23-2007, 10:00 AM

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sorry if this has been mentioned already, but how is Player 2 shooting an angle by saying call prematurely?

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Intentionally acting out of turn is against the rules and is a classic sorta angle.

bav · #72 10-23-2007, 10:08 AM

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Most places do the single motion these days. I think it is quite possible that this game was big enough to still be played the "old way."

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I started NL in a place that held more to the traditional approach, and folks regularly would grab a stack of chips with one hand and start cutting 'em out while simultaneously reaching back with the other for another stack so that they always had a hand in the betting area moving chips around. Long as you were moving around out there, you weren't done. Worked fine. It let us bet multiple stacks without saying a word and without arranging the stacks ahead of time and trying to scoot 'em across. First time I tried that in Vegas the dealer about slapped my hand. I adapted quickly.

TripleH68 · #73 10-23-2007, 10:16 AM

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I dont understand why anyone would ever call a bet before the other player was done betting. It just seems like total poker common sense that you set yourself up to get [censored] by calling out of turn.

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This story would be good if the premature caller has the nuts.

jeffnc · #74 10-23-2007, 10:18 AM

If I understand the situation correctly, Player 1 brings a stack of chips across the betting line. No more than that stack of chips can be bet. Otherwise it's a string bet. That much seems perfectly clear to me.

Player 2 acted out of turn. We have to assume his call is binding assuming a reasonable interpretation of Player 1's actions. A reasonable interpretation is that he was going to bet between $100 and $400. At that point Player 1 can declare (or cut) a total of $400.

It could even be argued that the bet is $400 period. The act of cutting chips can also be string betting, depending on how it's done. I guess that's an argument for another day, but Player 1 certainly has the option to call out a bet of $400, or to stop cutting chips at, say, $200, if cutting chips in such a way is not considered string betting.

I like the ruling in the sense that Player 2 got what he deserved (the call of "kings" against you is bad, bad, bad.) I'd say that I'd be concerned that the floor could screw me sometime too, but I'd never shoot an angle. Now, if I had said call because I saw max $400 chips in the player's hand, then I said call, I should only have to pay $400 (but I wouldn't have been angle shooting either.) Technically we can't be sure he was angling this hand, so the floor's ruling is wrong. He should pay $400.

jeffnc · #75 10-23-2007, 10:18 AM

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I agree that the ruling should be he is required to only call $400.

However If I was player 1 I would have no problem calling out $2000 if and only if I thought my opponent was a douchebag angleshooter who deserved it, and in this case it appears that he was. If the floor ruled correctly that I only get $400, then I wouldn't complain, but if I get the $2000 then no problem either.... eye for an eye.

If it was someone that I had no reason to believe was a scumbag (98% of the time) then I'd just finish the $400.

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Yes.

jeffnc · #76 10-23-2007, 10:23 AM

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sorry if this has been mentioned already, but how is Player 2 shooting an angle by saying call prematurely?

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He knows Player 1 is going to be between $100 and $400. He says "call" before all the chips are down, meaning he is going to call whatever Player 1 is going to bet. If he thinks Player 1 is weak, then Player 1 now knows there is no chance Player 2 will fold. He was probably going to bet $400, but if there was any chance he was bluffing, Player 2 gets (on long term average) a cheaper showdown, based on the probability that Player 1 might stop short and only put down $100 or $200.

jeffnc · #77 10-23-2007, 10:25 AM

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When you bet you should just state the amount you are betting and then count out the chips.

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I wish that were the rule. Simply make it be verbal by rule. Placing chips out does nothing. State the amount, that is binding no matter what. Nothing else matters (hand signals could be binding too, such as the check signal.)

leo doc · #78 10-23-2007, 10:26 AM

Bav or OP: How much should player 1 have to put in the pot if player 2 had said "all in", rather than "call?"

PrimogenitoX · #79 10-23-2007, 10:49 AM

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Btw were you at Cesars last week?

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I was in Vegas for the weekend for my friend's birthday...I didn't play much poker at all but I played 10/25 at Caesar's and a 5/10 while I waited for the 10/25 on Friday I think

PrimogenitoX · #80 10-23-2007, 10:53 AM

Also, I know it's kind of a side issue..but it really interests me..what if someone did bet 10k or something ridiculous and the opponent was ruled as having to pay..and he simply refused to pay and started leaving..?