KK 3 bet pot

[Profish2285]

At first I thought this is a standard fold but Im unsure because my diamonds and 2 outs to the set could be good. Villain runs at 23/12/1.29. He isnt very aggressive so I figured he could easily have me drawing to 2 outs, but then again I really had no idea.

Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

SB: $34.50
Hero (BB): $82.25
UTG: $51.90
MP: $16.95
CO: $71.15
BTN: $78.20

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
UTG calls $0.50, MP folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $2.25</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $9</font>, UTG folds, CO calls $6.75

Flop: ($18.75) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $9</font>, Hero calls $9

Turn: ($36.75) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $22</font>, Hero....

[RustedCorpse]

I say bet the pot on the flop. I your check is an almost auto bet on his part. If someone is going to be scared in the hand I'd rather it be him.

I think I bet till I hear from him. If I feel he's in a check call mode, I MAY check the river calling any small to medium bet.

But I'm fairly new to nl myself bear that in mind.

[Profish2285]

Betting the flop is a bad move. He isnt paying me off with worse very often and is only calling/raising with better. The reason I check the flop is so he can make that move with air or a lower pair. And yes, sometimes I also check here with an ace, but honestly only if its against a reg because otherwise its just a waste of value.

[doppelganger]

[ QUOTE ]
Betting the flop is a bad move. He isnt paying me off with worse very often and is only calling/raising with better. The reason I check the flop is so he can make that move with air or a lower pair. And yes, sometimes I also check here with an ace, but honestly only if its against a reg because otherwise its just a waste of value.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's true that by betting the flop you might push out weaker hands and only get called by aces, so there is value in a check/call on the flop if the flop is viewed in isolation.

However, I think the value you gain by letting weaker hands bluff on the flop is generally cancelled by the EV we lose by playing OOP on a scary board and not knowing where we are in the hand. (I have no calculations or math to back this up, it's just intuition - it could also just be my discomfort with playing OOP and something I need to work on.)

Villain now has control of the hand and is free to shape the size of the pot to fit his hand strength. I would rather keep the lead and take down a larger than normal pot early than build an even larger pot that we may be forced to walk away from on the turn and river.

Also, you may check w/ an A on a non-threating A high board sometimes, but I doubt you do it with all these draws present. Checking here telegraphs that you don't have an ace imo and allows villain to take you to valuetown.

[Profish2285]

You really think the average or even decent NL50 player realizes that when I check with an ace on this board, it is usually dry? First of all, I barely get to showdown as it is, so Im not convinced that checking this flop is even close to wrong tbh. The value I can gain from checking the flop and snapping off a bluff definitely outweighs the value of me betting and getting a fold. However, the flop is not really what I wanted to talk about, I care alot more about the turn here.

[doppelganger]

I didn't say it was wrong, I just said I prefer not to do it because I'm a wuss when I play OOP and I'm afraid of getting run over or getting sucked into a large pot when behind.

Anyway, on the turn you are only ahead of QQ and JJ, and I'm not even sure they 2 barrel after you c/c the flop. You're not getting odds for a FD even if he doesn't have the A, so I think it's a pretty easy fold.

[Check_The_Nuts]

seen this in a thread a while ago and I think u either gotta bet/fold or check/fold. I don't like check/call there 1 bit. inducing bets u can't call IMO.

[Profish2285]

Youre b/f-ing KK on this flop? If you are then why?

[P0kerJunkie]

[ QUOTE ]
I say bet the pot on the flop. I your check is an almost auto bet on his part. If someone is going to be scared in the hand I'd rather it be him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet the flop to find out where you're at. Since the bet on the flop is auto for him, you won't know if he's got a hand like JJ or AK. On the flop, b/f. If he's got some type of read on you and mans up enough to raise that board with a weaker hand... I just can't see myself calling a raise here. I hate the c/c because it leaves him in control of the hand, and forces you to remain guessing as to where you're at. As played, I might have to c/f the turn...

[z28dreams]

I typically c-bet the flop here for many of the reasons doppelganger stated.

If I'm in position though, I'll often check behind.