kind of an awkward rivered top 2 pair

[Praetor]

what is awful about it

[wrkingtobegreat]

check/call is clearly our best bet here. or maybe just pushing is...but i seriously cant believe anyone is advocating bet-fold here.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
check/call is clearly our best bet here. or maybe just pushing is...but i seriously cant believe anyone is advocating bet-fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a pretty easy spot for a bet/fold imo. The fact you don't think it is even something worth considering is very telling about your play. Give me a better argument than ZOMG fold getting 4-1. I'm willing to listen.

[wrkingtobegreat]

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what is awful about it

[/ QUOTE ]

we're basically investing almost half our stack in a feeler bet then folding to a raise....how could POSSIBLY be better than a check/call on this river. Please explain this.

[TheMetetron]

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[ QUOTE ]
what is awful about it

[/ QUOTE ]

we're basically investing almost half our stack in a feeler bet then folding to a raise....how could POSSIBLY be better than a check/call on this river. Please explain this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll explain this to you for $300/hr. Alternatively, try to talk this out by posting all of your thoughts on the river action in as much detail as possible and you'll probably learn for free.

[wrkingtobegreat]

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[ QUOTE ]
check/call is clearly our best bet here. or maybe just pushing is...but i seriously cant believe anyone is advocating bet-fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a pretty easy spot for a bet/fold imo. The fact you don't think it is even something worth considering is very telling about your play. Give me a better argument than ZOMG fold getting 4-1. I'm willing to listen.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your going to bet-fold, why not just check/call? check call at least induces bluffs and we're going to invest another 2/3 of the pot anyway. Also, we have no chance of getting pushed out if we check (unless villain pushes after we check...thats the only way i could ever see a fold on this river)

[Lucky]

With pf and flop action, this guy looks to have an Ace or T. Basically, i'm not putting him on flush draw. So to extract more from this ten (and given you're not getting 3 bets from him with weak ace), turn check is ok.

As played though, the most important thing on river is to not fold. As turn went, he looks to have an Ace, so you want to get as much money in as he'll call. If he raises of course, call.

[wrkingtobegreat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what is awful about it

[/ QUOTE ]

we're basically investing almost half our stack in a feeler bet then folding to a raise....how could POSSIBLY be better than a check/call on this river. Please explain this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll explain this to you for $300/hr. Alternatively, try to talk this out by posting all of your thoughts on the river action in as much detail as possible and you'll probably learn for free.

[/ QUOTE ]

My agrument is that players bluff. Just because he pushes this river over our "feeler bet" or whatever the hell it is, doesn't mean he has the flush. Maybe he has a read that we are a solid player, bet three consecutive streets (2 probably not on a flush draw, and is raising us out with a weaker ace). Or maybe he's just a donk wanting to get it all-in with a weaker ace on the river. My point is that the chance he might not have a better hand than us when he pushes over our raise, though small, presents a EV catastrophe for us if we are going to fold to it.

[shootaa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what is awful about it

[/ QUOTE ]

we're basically investing almost half our stack in a feeler bet then folding to a raise....how could POSSIBLY be better than a check/call on this river. Please explain this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll explain this to you for $300/hr. Alternatively, try to talk this out by posting all of your thoughts on the river action in as much detail as possible and you'll probably learn for free.

[/ QUOTE ]

My agrument is that players bluff. Just because he pushes this river over our "feeler bet" or whatever the hell it is, doesn't mean he has the flush. Maybe he has a read that we are a solid player, bet three consecutive streets (2 probably not on a flush draw, and is raising us out with a weaker ace). Or maybe he's just a donk wanting to get it all-in with a weaker ace on the river. My point is that the chance he might not have a better hand than us when he pushes over our raise, though small, presents a EV catastrophe for us if we are going to fold to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

He knows that he's giving us 4-1 if he bluff shoves here. Which wouldn't make any since anyways given that he's called the flop and the turn, unless he did so with air for some reason. I haven't looked at stack sizes or anything else for this hand (although I'd generally just get it in thinnish spots, if for nothing else but meta game considerations.

Anyways, the basic concept of a bet/fold is that we think better hands will raise and worse will sometimes call. Therefore, we make money when those other hands call.

[wrkingtobegreat]

I still dont see how we can be more than 80% certain (because we're getting 4-1) that we are beaten when we get raised. I understand that we are beat most of the time, but we need to be pretty damn certain here to fold.