30/60 HOE Stud8 hand vs. cardplayer donks

[Bill King]

30/60 Stud8 hand at Foxwoods.. happened a while ago but I figured I would post it and see what you guys think.

We're rocking it 6-handed.. one of which I have lots of NL hands played with and some 20/40 LHE. The rest accept for me are some of the cardplayer guys (linda, Jan.. etc) all sitting and expecting me to be the weak spot b/c I'm under 80 years old [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

anyways.. theres this one bigtime weakdonator lagtard moron to my left that came literally straight from the blackjack tables.. jan fisher, linda and the regular to my left.

I played this hand superweaktight on purpose b/c i knew i could trap stupid to my left until at least 5th, possibly the river if he makes a pair.

lagtard moron brings in, folded around to Jan who completes w/ a 2 up, i call [KK] J laggy idiot calls w/ 2 up.

4th: laggy idiot: XX 2T, jan XX25, me [KK] J9

i check, idiot checks, linda bets, i call he calls (okay working well so far).

5th: idiot XX2T8 (he reacts like he just made a pair and only I noticed this.. jan was too busy looking at her card and I wasnt worried about her b/c shes ABC predictable)

she makes XX 258, i make KK J9J.

i bet, idiot calls, she 2-bets.. i think and call, idiot calls (yay!)

6th: idiot XX2T8Q, jan XX258A, me KK J9J4

i check, idiot checks, jan bets, we all call.

at this point i'm almost sure that Ace paired her and shes betting for value.. there's no way shes taking a free card here which is why i checked.. b/c i dont really want to be raised on 6th here and i'm not folding with all the K's and J's live and a big pot developing.

so what do you do when the river comes:

A. blank
B. Ace
C. K or J
D. a card that pairs her upcards

results later..

[Bartholow]

Given your reads, seems like Jan must have 2 pair, so fold unless you improve. You could try to checkraise her unimproved, hoping moron will call with a worse hand and then she'll have to fold aces up, but seems like a longshot.

[2461Badugi]

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at this point i'm almost sure that Ace paired her and shes betting for value.

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Naturally she's betting for value whether it paired her or not, given that she almost certainly has you both drawing dead for low.

I don't like this hand at all, but since you're here, bet if you fill, check-call if you don't. She's too likely to scoop you to try to get more than one bet out of the fish with kings up. And of course you're never scooping with kings up.

[Bartholow]

For some reason I was thinking stud high only. I'll get back to you on stud/8 lol.

[howzit]

bart, why does Jan have to have two pair? i agree w/2461Badugi that she could just be value betting her board lock.

you're probably right that she has an ace underneath but isn't also prob she would complete with 234 on third? so being that the wheel is there and she's got 4 babies, it's a crying call with the dead money in there. in any case, i think betting out with anything less than a boat is -EV.

but if you fill up, you have such nice position to get in a minimum of 3 bets...lead out, fish calls, jan raises her lock low/wheel, and you 4 bet if you think he'll call over half the time.

i don't like the lead on fifth because jan caught good and the guy in the middle should be folding here almost 100% of the time.

on a seperate note, if this were a regular game, is it a good idea to 2 bet on third or wait until Jan catches bad on fourth to start firing?

[Bartholow]

Ok, now that I know it's stud/8:

I understand the thinking behind keeping the moron in, but I can't help but think he hurts you more than he hurts the low hand. So I might try to knock him out on 4th. On 5th I again kinda want to knock him out, but since you are already pretty likely to be freerolled AGAINST, I don't really like putting in the extra action there. So maybe I'm back to playing it like you did.

As far as the river, it seems clear you want to trap idiot for as many bets as possible if you fill, and that you should probably cry call if you don't. I don't think the A or a card that pair her upcards change this enough
that I would try to get more bets out of idiot. Too much chance for disaster.

[FishySayBANG!]

In general when you are entering a pot with a big pair playing stud8 you want to play the pot HU. When two low hands enter the pot there is a much better chance that your big pair is going to be scooped/ and or jammed and while you will sometimes win half there are going to be more ocassions where you will be scooped.

I would probably jack it up on 3rd. It does depend on how tight/strong of a player the completer is however.

Then on 4th I would most likely bet, have the bad player call, and then if the low raises I would three bet.

5th: One of our opponents is most likely free-rolling now. While her board is very tame I still dont like the idea of putting in more than one bet here. I think check calling is all you can do...same on 6th. Even though it now appears there is a very real chance you may get scooped you got this far so you probably need to show down.

On 7th you can only bet if you make a full house. Your only option is to check call here.

[Bill King]

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Ok, now that I know it's stud/8:

I understand the thinking behind keeping the moron in, but I can't help but think he hurts you more than he hurts the low hand. So I might try to knock him out on 4th. On 5th I again kinda want to knock him out, but since you are already pretty likely to be freerolled AGAINST, I don't really like putting in the extra action there. So maybe I'm back to playing it like you did.

As far as the river, it seems clear you want to trap idiot for as many bets as possible if you fill, and that you should probably cry call if you don't. I don't think the A or a card that pair her upcards change this enough
that I would try to get more bets out of idiot. Too much chance for disaster.

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i almost put the option of: an Ace or a card that pairs her board.. but in essence that doesnt really chance the hand b/c even if i do catch a card that could make her aces up chances lower.. i'm probably still making a crying call... which is what i wanted people to discuss.

[Bill King]

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at this point i'm almost sure that Ace paired her and shes betting for value.

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Naturally she's betting for value whether it paired her or not, given that she almost certainly has you both drawing dead for low.

I don't like this hand at all, but since you're here, bet if you fill, check-call if you don't. She's too likely to scoop you to try to get more than one bet out of the fish with kings up. And of course you're never scooping with kings up.

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i know i'm not scooping.. but she needs the wheel to scoop and for me to not fill up. what i'm trying to do is build equity off of the guy whom likely has crap.. b/c he is the weak spot in the game. this hand gets played completely different without him in the hand of course.

[Bill King]

if this were a game without the donator to my left I would certainly play this 100% differently.. i would probably hold off until 4th to raise though b/c i dont want to give away my hand completely.