NL10 SH Showdown value with A high?

stever1k · #1 10-25-2007, 05:20 PM

I just started playing NL - i switched completely from FL. At the moment i m donating my monies at the NL10 SH tables :-)

This is such a typical situation and i would like to know the correct play. What would be different if a T hits the River for example, what if the T already hits the Turn?

Which hand does he call on this dry flop?

Villain plays a 47/0/1 (VPIP/PFR/AF) style for around 60 hands.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP ($4.10)
Hero ($11.95)
SB ($14.05)
BB ($6.20)
UTG ($25.70)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.5, 1 fold, BB calls $0.40, MP folds.

Flop: ($1.15) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.8, BB calls $0.80.

Turn: ($2.75) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($2.75) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $0.7, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $2.75

Snafu'd · #2 10-25-2007, 05:26 PM

If you are calling this river it is for information purposes and table image. Players with these stats are going to have you beat in this spot the vast majority of the time. But I don't hate calling b/c you've got postition on him and a situation like this is bound to come up again and then you'll know exactly what his bet means. Plus it will give you a good table image if any one is paying attention (and by good, I mean "haha look at that donk that called with A high").

panzerocks4 · #3 10-25-2007, 07:36 PM

fold
easily could have a small pair that called you on the flop

Lego05 · #4 10-25-2007, 07:51 PM

You don't have showdown value. There aren't even any draws out there thta he could have missed.

Here's a hand I played recently where I thought I had showdown value on river with ace high:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($48.95)
UTG ($75)
MP ($28.85)
Hero ($50.20)
Button ($44.80)
SB ($47.40)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2.5, Button calls $2.50, 2 folds, MP calls $2.

Flop: ($8.25) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $5, Button calls $5, MP folds.

Turn: ($18.25) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: ($18.25) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $7, Hero calls $7.

Final Pot: $32.25

Results in white below: 
Hero has As Jd (one pair, kings).
Button has 4c Ac (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins $32.25.

Movelong · #5 10-25-2007, 08:48 PM

WY CALL RIVER BET? WAT RANGES U PUT HIM ON?

Hebel · #6 10-25-2007, 08:56 PM

havent looked at results yet

the times that villain has a busted flush draw will be way less than the times villain slowplayed a king/full house/is taking you to valuetown with a pair/is bluffing with aq etc.
So while if you make this call and look like a genius, the 9 times out of 10 you call and pay off a monster you look like a retard.

call is good for metagame i guess, but otherwise i think its lighting money on fire

Lego05 · #7 10-26-2007, 12:31 AM

Nah I only need to be good like 22% of the time. Sure it's a K sometimes and maybe sometimes a midpair like 88 or something. But this is played exactly like a draw. (And though I don't remember now I must have had an opinion on the villian which helped.) I think it's pretty thin, but I think it's good.

Sardine · #8 10-26-2007, 12:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
But this is played exactly like a draw. (And though I don't remember now I must have had an opinion on the villian which helped.) I think it's pretty thin, but I think it's good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really alot of draws out there. Without a better read, I don't think you can place him on draw > pot odds. I can see wanting to call with Ahigh sometimes since you are coming from a FL background. However typically in limit you have more series of bets inorder to assist you in guessing that A high is good and often you are getting better than 4-1. You should be doing much less calling with Ahigh in NL vs FL.

Lego05 · #9 10-26-2007, 12:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But this is played exactly like a draw. (And though I don't remember now I must have had an opinion on the villian which helped.) I think it's pretty thin, but I think it's good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really alot of draws out there. Without a better read, I don't think you can place him on draw > pot odds. I can see wanting to call with Ahigh sometimes since you are coming from a FL background. However typically in limit you have more series of bets inorder to assist you in guessing that A high is good and often you are getting better than 4-1. You should be doing much less calling with Ahigh in NL vs FL.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not coming from a fixed limit background. You are confusing me with the OP. I've barely ever played limit. I've been playing no limit cash for a while. I'm an ~5PTBB/100 winner at 50NL over my last ~120,000 hands.

This is obviously not a standard call with A high. I'm just trying to show OP that if you are ever going to I'd prefer boards like this with a possible draw and I like the paired board since it's less likely he hit the flop. Also the fact that villian played like he had a draw....sure his range includes other hands, but draws are deifnitely a good part and I'm getting 3.5 to 1 on the river. Like I said I think it's thin but I think it's good and the metagame aspect is going to be good.

Sardine · #10 10-26-2007, 01:08 AM

Hey Lego, it must be late and I misread your post as being from OP. I think his (OP) board is not drawy enough. I agree that the hand you posted is a good example of when this can happen in NL.

OP is coming from a FL background, and if it's short FL, especially aggressive games, calling down with A high is standard in alot of spots. However I would guess the frequency of doing so in NL is much less than in FL strictly due to the pot odds NL bets give.