25nl 2Pair v. shortstck on crap board

[wotttttttttt]

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

UTG: $9.65
MP: $22.85
CO: $24.70
BTN: $51.70
Hero (SB): $37.25
BB: $16.10

Pre-Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG calls $0.25, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.15, BB checks

Flop: ($0.75) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $0.75</font>, BB folds, UTG calls $0.75

Turn: ($2.25) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $1.75</font>, UTG calls $1.75

River: ($5.75) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero ?</font> (Villain has 7$ behind)
Villain is typical semi-loose passive fish over small station.

Bet more on turn?

As I played it I can't decide whether to shove river or bet/fold river... he's so short I'm inclined to just shove, any ideas?

[ICMoney]

I don't like shoving river.

It was a limped pot and then you pot the flop into two players.

The straight/flush got there on the turn and you fire again.

If you shove, I doubt he can call w/ AT or some other one pair hand. You are either getting called by a worse 2 pair hand (unlikely) or a better hand.

If he is a loose-passive station he is much more likely to call a bet than to bet/raise.

I think I might try to bet $3 for value.

Sucks if he raises, but I can't see that small of a raise by that kind of a player being a bluff.

Thoughts?

[JimboNYY24]

check/call if you don't like bet fold. But i dont mind betting like 2-3 and folding to a shove if you think he never bluffs, or vice versa...never see a passive fish bluff here

[wotttttttttt]

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check/call if you don't like bet fold. But i dont mind betting like 2-3 and folding to a shove if you think he never bluffs, or vice versa...never see a passive fish bluff here

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C/C is horrible here because he never bluffs and won't bet a lot of weaker hands that he'll call a bet with.
I don't think he ever folds QT+ to a shove, certainly never a slowplayed overpair, but how much of his range is the flush and how much of his range is a ten that calls as opposed to a weaker made hand that folds to a shove but calls a 3$ bet?

[Brian O'Nolan]

fold pf. scs are not profitable OOP vs 2 shorties. as played, meh, I bet/call half pot or somethin.

[wotttttttttt]

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fold pf. scs are not profitable OOP vs 2 shorties. as played, meh, I bet/call half pot or somethin.

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lol this is so weak/tight
Profitability has so facets that attempting to claim that "such and such hands are not profitable to play" is ridiculous. Regardless of stacksize I'm getting 5:1 pot odds and am going to get raised here almost never by these guys.

[Brian O'Nolan]

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fold pf. scs are not profitable OOP vs 2 shorties. as played, meh, I bet/call half pot or somethin.

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lol this is so weak/tight
Profitability has so facets that attempting to claim that "such and such hands are not profitable to play" is ridiculous. Regardless of stacksize I'm getting 5:1 pot odds and am going to get raised here almost never by these guys.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you think you are going to get yourself in much better spots than you ended up in on this hand? What is the best case scenario for you playing this OOP on every street? So many more times you're going to end up in marginal spots that will turn to -EV because you're OOP and you have minimal FE not taking the initiative and being the aggressor in the hand.

[TTStrangler]

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fold pf. scs are not profitable OOP vs 2 shorties. as played, meh, I bet/call half pot or somethin.

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lol this is so weak/tight
Profitability has so facets that attempting to claim that "such and such hands are not profitable to play" is ridiculous. Regardless of stacksize I'm getting 5:1 pot odds and am going to get raised here almost never by these guys.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you think you are going to get yourself in much better spots than you ended up in on this hand? What is the best case scenario for you playing this OOP on every street? So many more times you're going to end up in marginal spots that will turn to -EV because you're OOP and you have minimal FE not taking the initiative and being the aggressor in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I pretty much agree with Brian, I don't think completing with a SC like this is bad idea, but this is not the flop you are looking for here to be pumping the pot up like this. I know you don't like these "weak/tight" suggestions but IMO regularly potting the flop multiway from the SB with MP is going to consistently get you in -EV type situations.

[Das Budrick]

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fold pf. scs are not profitable OOP vs 2 shorties. as played, meh, I bet/call half pot or somethin.

[/ QUOTE ]
lol this is so weak/tight
Profitability has so facets that attempting to claim that "such and such hands are not profitable to play" is ridiculous. Regardless of stacksize I'm getting 5:1 pot odds and am going to get raised here almost never by these guys.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you think you are going to get yourself in much better spots than you ended up in on this hand? What is the best case scenario for you playing this OOP on every street? So many more times you're going to end up in marginal spots that will turn to -EV because you're OOP and you have minimal FE not taking the initiative and being the aggressor in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

not completing preflop is pretty retarded, but donking the flop isn't good either.

as played definitely value bet the river and call a shove

[wotttttttttt]

No offense, but the fact that most responses consist of debates of whether to fold preflop, bet/call or check call river gives me hope to the future profitability of online poker.

Against a LOOSE PASSIVE player, you want to exploit passivity by seeing more flops cheaply with hands that can hit big, valuebet wide ranges but fold to aggression. If he raises I'm ahead like never, if I'm going to bet and call a shove then I should just shove to begin with because he's muchmuchmuchmuchmuch more likely to call a shove with a naked ten than he is to shove a naked ten over my river third barrel. As in, he won't shove it. I am ~0% equity against his shoving raise on river.

The only profitable ways to play this river are to bet/fold and to open shove.

And to the people saying not to bet this flop: I'm ahead of their calling range on flop since they show up with baby FDs and underpairs often in pots like these. Plus I play like 35/28/4 so I have an image to maintain

Board: Th 7h 3c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 46.858% 45.57% 01.29% 125405 3556.50 { 8s7s }
Hand 1: 53.142% 51.85% 01.29% 142702 3556.50 { 22+, ATs+, Ah9h, Ah8h, Ah7h, Ah6h, Ah5h, Ah4h, Ah3h, Ah2h, KhQh, KhJh, KTs, Kh9h, Kh8h, QhJh, QTs, Qh9h, Qh8h, JTs, Jh9h, Jh8h, Jh7h, Jh6h, T6s+, 98s, 9h7h, 9h6h, 8h6h, 8h5h, 7h6h, 7h5h, 7h4h, 6h5h, 6h4h, 6h3h, 5h4h, 5h3h, 5h2h, 4h3h, 4h2h, 32s, ATo+, A3o, KTo, QTo, JTo, T7o+, 97o+, 75o+, 43o, 32o }

And I can play perfectly when any flushcard but the 8 comes because passive players turn their hands face up when they are strong.