River Semibluff - $25 Full Tilt

kurto · #1 10-05-2007, 02:41 PM

I have $30ish and villain has about $45. On a rather aggressive table I decide to limp some more speculative hands.

UTG limps (40/20).
I limp from CO with K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
A 38/25 type (DUDE) raises from SB to $1.

 READ -- he has been actively raising a lot of limpers lately regardless of position. I don't know if he's positionally aware, though I suspect not. Still, I don't knew to give him more credit for a hand since he's raising from the SB. I have seen him slow down postflop so I believe there's a lot of possibilities playing hands against him. 

FLOP (appox $3)
K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

DUDE bets $2. I call.
 There's a chance I have the best hand. Based on past hands, I believe he won't often two barrel it if he's weak. 

TURN (~$7)
5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
DUDE bets $4. I raise it up to $12. He calls.

My question is really around the turn... other then hitting a 7, I can't think of a more perfect card to hit... the possibilities. Check? I suspect bet is right but I think I always underbet when I'm raising. Never sure how much to raise on the fly. In retrospect, I think a minimum of $15 up to a push sounds more right?

Genz · #2 10-05-2007, 02:52 PM

Is he the type that can let go of hands or will he start a pissing contest over each hand where he has tried to muscle you out? I have a general dislike for bluffs against players like this, because they often genuinely think that Q8 is a strong hand here. this bluff depends on a scare card that might not be obvious to players that have some TP or PP, ie a scare card that is not an A or K.

As played, the raise is too small. Pure violence makes for a big part of your FE here. Pot size raise would be $19 (shorthand: 3x the bet+pot). I'd make it $17 or so.

kurto · #3 10-05-2007, 03:02 PM

I've seen him let go of hands. But I don't know if he's laying down weak hands or complete air. I had 200 hands on the guy but only 4 that went to showdown.

Later on I learned that he would call down lighter then I think he should. But at the time of this hand, I only knew he'd raised a lot and had slowed shown the ability to let some hands go when facing resistance.

[ QUOTE ]
As played, the raise is too small. Pure violence makes for a big part of your FE here. Pot size raise would be $19 (shorthand: 3x the bet+pot). I'd make it $17 or so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah... in the heat of betting, I too often base my betsize on HIS bet rathar then the pot. I almost immediately regret not having bet more. I shall try your shorthand formula.

wslee00 · #4 10-05-2007, 03:04 PM

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Pure violence

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is this some new poker term that's been going around that I haven't heard of?

I like the raise on the turn if you don't think he has a K, which is very reasonable imo.

Genz · #5 10-05-2007, 03:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah... in the heat of betting, I too often base my betsize on HIS bet rathar then the pot. I almost immediately regret not having bet more. I shall try your shorthand formula.

[/ QUOTE ]
Bet pot scripts are handy and there are some for almost any site.

Genz · #6 10-05-2007, 03:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pure violence

[/ QUOTE ]
is this some new poker term that's been going around that I haven't heard of?

I like the raise on the turn if you don't think he has a K, which is very reasonable imo.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why a new term? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
I meant to say that a player with stats like that will often overvalue marginal hands. So you need to make it VERY clear to him that you are strong so that he won't call you down with bottom pair. If you make a move that looks like you aren't sure about yourself yet, then he will call you.

This player might be different obv. since OP added that villain goes to SD very rarely. So he might actually be a decent LAG. In the light of this, a smaller raise can work too and is probably better since you should only risk what can get the job done. But I think $15 looks more solid than $12.

Hail Eris · #7 10-05-2007, 03:31 PM

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So you need to make it VERY clear to him that you are strong so that he won't call you down with bottom pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

We have top pair. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Edit: I like this line if you're doing it for value/free showdown/hiding draws, etc. I don't like it as a semibluff because trying to make people fold a hand better than TPNK when you're repping only sets and draws is pretty bad.

kurto · #8 10-05-2007, 03:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So you need to make it VERY clear to him that you are strong so that he won't call you down with bottom pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

We have top pair. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Edit: I like this line if you're doing it for value/free showdown/hiding draws, etc. I don't like it as a semibluff because trying to make people fold a hand better than TPNK when you're repping only sets and draws is pretty bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the record -- I'm not trying to rep draws. Though my opponents don't know this, I'm not regularly raising the turn with just a draw. 90% of the time I'm making this bet I have 2 pair or better. (granted, he doesn't know this about me... but a particular observant opponent might guess that I'm not usually raising naked flush or straight draws on the turn)

And- I did include the possibility of laying down a better king here.

I will forever be curious if I'd made a healthier raise if he'd have laid down on the turn.

kurto · #9 10-05-2007, 04:01 PM

HIDDEN:
 River was the Ace of Diamonds giving me the nutflush. He checked. I bet 1/2 pot. He called and showed AK for the rivered 2 pair.

I've been wondering if I like his call on the turn and the river. I don't know what he thinks I'm representing that raises the turn and still value bets the river.

Genz · #10 10-05-2007, 04:14 PM

it's a tough spot for him on the turn. I'd have a hard time laying it down, too. River would be a tough fold for me, but even if I had put you on a semi-bluff on the turn, the river card would have been my death card. so it boils down to how you play such a hand against someone who limp calls preflop, calls the flop and then raises the turn a smallish amount. I think I can lay it down here, but I hate you for playing it like that [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]