gambling back-to-back with JTs against same foe

[brick]

20/40 diamond lils
I've have a tight image, and I'm down little due to not seeing many showdowns. Most players are average, not way loose but not tight by any strech.

Hand 1:
Game is short 6 handed with three walkers. Foe limps (seems like a decent early 40's asian player), LP raises, SB calls. I call in the BB with JcTc.

4 way to Flop: Qs 9s 4d
sb checks, I check, EP bets, LP calls, sb folds, I call.

Turn: 9c
I check, EP bets, LP calls, I call.

River: 5s
I check, EP bets, LP folds, I raise.


Hand 2:
Two of the walkers decide to post just behind our foe.
Foe raises UTG, two posters call, LP calls, button calls. I 3-bet from the SB with JsTs. BB folds. Foe caps.

One poster folds, Others calls.

5 ways for 11BBs. I check dark. (Rain Khan type mistake?)
Flop As Kd 5h

Foe bets, poster folds, LP calls, Btn folds, I check-raise, (for the oop free card, seriously), both call.

Turn: 7c
I stare for a second and check, check, check.

River: Tc.
I check, foe bets, LP folds, I call.

[KitCloudkicker]

Hand 1: This only works if villain is either very weak tight or one of those "I gotta play perfect" types. Otherwise just spew.

Hand 2: I have no idea why you called the river. What do you beat? Nor do I understand the PF 3 bet or the flop CR.

[HOWMANY]

Hand 1: If he's betting here then he's calling your raise

Hand 2: You will almost never be donking the flop here because most of your best flops will be draws which you will want to check, let utg bet and then trap the field with c/r. That said I think checking dark is pretty pointless and takes away one of your options. After your dark check I think I hate everything you did in this hand.

[thebeebster]

seems way too fps to me. my experience in this game tells me it's still showdown poker and no one is trying to take people off the best hand or folding to river raises with top pair.

the dark check is really disturbing to me. i would never pass up the chance to bet/3bet in this big pot in case i flopped huge. perhaps the muck games have your head in a different place?

[sternroolz]

Hand 1 river cr is so bad. You get called, you lose.

Hand 2 I like the 3-bet pf. I don't check dark though. I like to lead flop w/ 1 pair if UTG will mostly 3 bet hear to clear the field giving your hand a better chance to win. I also like donking on very strong flops(2 pair or better). And I like cr with nut draw flopped. I'm not a fan at all of c/r for an oop free card on an inside straight draw and not sure of the point of it.

[brick]

dang, screwed up an important part of hand 2.
The 5 on the flop was also a diamond.

[brick]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: This only works if villain is either very weak tight or one of those "I gotta play perfect" types. Otherwise just spew.


[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe he is betting because he doesn't have anything.

[that_pope]

First hand, the check raise on the river is bad, you are representing a flush, but there are now 3 more BB in the hand, so the opponent is more likely to call. A much cheaper, and sometimes more effective bluff is just donking the river, since you played it like a draw (which you did have) and now you act like you don't want your flush to get checked down. This is totally unresults oriented, because the opponent betting makes it look like you are getting called, but I enjoy this line a lot, and it saves you a BB for your bluff attempt, and keeps the pot smaller, giving the other players worse odds to call. And the fact that you are betting into 2 others is strong. Of course another okay line is check/folding, and moving onto the next hand, but taking a 1 BB shot at this pot when the draw hits isn't horrible.

Hand 2
I hate so much about the things you choose to do on this hand. Call preflop please, pot is already big enough. This check raise on the flop is pointless, and will only get a QQ to fold, and if a QQ is there, along with an ace, you are going to be hard pressed to win this hand. The turn action is fine, and since this pot was so bloated, I don't mind the river call closing the betting, since you are getting 15:1 or something.

[threeonefour]

I hate both hands. but since the hands were played in a row, and you want us to consider the context, i think we need to know the results of hand 1 before we can comment on 2.

anyway:

hand 1:
i just don't get check raising the river, in a vacuum it is an inferior play to check/folding.

hand 2: you aren't winning on the river enough, i say fold. preflop 3 bet is not my style, but with all the posters, i could see an argument for it, but i could also see an argument for wanting multiway action. flop check/raise, again, in a vacuum is isn't as profitable as a more straight forward line.

EDIT: one good thing that could come of this, if you table both hands (seems like a lot of people just want to muck everytime even when it is bad for metagame) i would automatically label you as a wanna-be tricky donk. no offense, just illustrating that 90% of players make snap judgments based on one hand that last for hours. that is if i paid attention to the hand which i am sad to say that i and many other players wouldn't be much of the time.

[brick]

I normally play conservatively but sometimes get the gambling bug with JTs.

On the first hand I agree the river check-raise is desperate. I tried to pull one of these the other night and got called quickly. This time my opponent thought for a second and mucked. Maybe he had a pair but I doubt it.

On the second hand I really thought the OOP free card play might work. I need to do more thinking about whether this can ever be right with gutshot.

On the river I called and was shown Jd9d. You all think I'm good here more or less than 1 in 20? (just wondering how bad this call is)