Hey, we haven't had a fold kings preflop discussion in minutes..

[Hundrye]

1. Be in a 5 handed microstakes game 100BB deep
2. Have an opportunity to get it all-in PF with KK
3. ???
4. Profit

[netstorm]

if he pushes, you're still getting like 4:1 on your call, so even *if* calling an allin PF is a marginal error, this only applies if you are 100% certain he has nothing else but AA

[Bastian]

I also have the same problem. I never fold kings preflop, and ofcourse EVERYTIME they have aces.

Its so obvious too. Sometimes I wanna click fold but I think about how everyone says don't, and ofcourse, they have aces!

This seems to be something so simple everyone understands, but I just don't get it.

[Gustav]

Well, if it makes you feel better I can confess that I've folded KK preflop for ~100bb 3 whole times over the 3 years I've played, and I feel pretty good about all of them. I wouldn't fault you for going with your read in a situation like this. But I wouldn't fault you for calling either. And if he pushed instead it would be an easy call imo.

But if you just know he has exactly KK or AA, then I think going with one's read is fine, as long as you're 100% aware of how completely non-standard this is and don't start folding monsters left and right.

And since anecdotal evidence over a miniscule sample is the best and most reliable kind of evidence there is; I remember two of my folds fairly well. One was a ridiculously obvious cold overcall/4bet all-in type line (he showed AA), and the other was a very nitty player in BB making a small 3bet over an UTG raise and a caller (he had KK). If they had just pushed or played the hand straightforwardly, they would both have stacked me easily. I don't remember the third one at all anymore, except knowing that it happened. Or maybe I dreamed it, who knows.

[.xxxx.]

In this situation you're going to get your stack in regardless because villain has AK/QQ often enough that the few times you run into AA will just be variance. What line would you have taken if you were villain and held QQ?

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Be in a 5 handed microstakes game 100BB deep
2. Have an opportunity to get it all-in PF with KK
3. ???
4. Profit

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel like people are missing some stuff here. I've been playing for a couple of years and started by saying I pretty much 100% do this. I've spouted this same advice on this forum. It is a rule.

I am merely suggesting that there are exceptions to the rule. (I will say for the record that I have seen medium and high stakes posts where people suggested folding KK preflop for around a buyin and the entire forum didn't laugh at the suggestion. And I realize I play $50 tables... That being said, there is a difference where 98% of the time I'm saying, "Oh Goody, I'm getting it all in preflop with pocket kings. I hope he doesn't have aces." VERSUS -- the 1 in 50 time where you say, "Wow, I feel FAIRLY confident that this particular player in this instance is heavily weighted to Aces. My read is very strong... though I usually am happy to get it all in here, I'm know I'm very likely a dog here..."

For the hand as posted... do you honestly think a decent tight player here who has some ability to put an opponent on a range of hands... plays JJ here this way? Again... I'm not talking about crazy lags battling it out... I thought my situation presented was very detailed.

Put yourselves in his shoes and tell me what YOU play the way he did.

[jmgambler]

I Post at another Forum, and was in the same situation you are now,(below is the HH I posted) with everyone saying NEVER fold KK PF.

You were at the table and "felt" it was a good fold then fine, do not beat yourself up about it....... in the same way that AA vs KK doesnt happen often enough to worry about it, You folding KK PF will not happen that often either (we hope?)

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Hold'em Cash Game
$0.10/$0.25 Blinds
6 Players
http://www.legopoker.com/hh/

Stack Sizes
SB: $25.65
BB: $27.35
Hero (UTG): $38.15
MP: $46.15
CO: $12.30
BTN: $14.80

Preflop: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($0.35, 6 Players)
Hero raises to $0.85, 3 folds, SB raises to $2.45, BB folds, Hero raises to $4.05, SB raises all-in to $25.65, Hero Folds.

*shrugs* I felt he had AA

[sightless]

[ QUOTE ]
I also have the same problem. I never fold kings preflop, and ofcourse EVERYTIME they have aces.


[/ QUOTE ]

nah they dont

you just forget all the times where you beat his ak and qq :/

[C4LL4W4Y]

Without reads your situation is entirely different from kurto's.

FWIW it takes a solid read Kurto, but you know it's no leak in your game if that's what you're going off.

[brian8065]

I fold KK preflop about once every 50,000 hands, or for me about once a month. It has to be a rare occurrence. I will only do it against a regular player that I have played over 500 hands against, but usually a lot more. That criterion is solid. 150 hands are not enough for me.

Of course they would have to be a tight player. Then it would be several other factors combined to make me believe that I am certainly beat.

About every 5,000 hands you will have KK vs. AA.