Hey, we haven't had a fold kings preflop discussion in minutes..

[kurto]

I never post these but I actually have one where I'm angry with myself. I want to see if anyone agrees with where I'm coming from here....

$50 NL on Full tilt. We are currently 5 handed.

I have $75.60 and I'm in the BB.

Villain has approx $50 and is UTG+1. TAG stats... something like 15/7 and I had about 150 hands. I believe I was running nitty too at this table but not as much 22/11ish.

I have not shown down anything stupid and should have a good image.

UTG folds, Villain potraises to $1.75. Button and SB both call. I potraise it to $8.75 from the BB. Villain immediately 4 bets it to $25. folds to me.

Here was my thoughts that I completely ignored.
(1) I don't think for a second he thinks I'm bluffing. I haven't showed down any bluffs. I'm out of position yet I raised an EP nitty open-raiser with 2 smoothcallers.
(2) He RERAISES me without pushing... he's essentially isolating me, pot committing us both without pushing. And he's doing this with 2 people still to act after him.
(3) I can't stress that I'm the 2nd nittiest player at this table and should have a great table image.

His bet is begging me to call or push.

I know its only 100bb but come on... I just don't see a guy that nitty doing this with AK because I think this player is smart enough to know what I'm representing. I may as well have just flipped my cards over preflop. There's no way he puts me on anything worse then QQ/KK/AA... at worst AK... Frankly, his raise to $25 is scarier then a push because he's trying to keep me in.

Work with me.

[hra146]

push

[wildzer0]

I never ever ever fold kings preflop, and honestly, I think that's a sound strategy. Not to just ignore your analysis but even the nittiest players are going to play this way with a wider range than aces. I had an almost identical hand today, nittiest player at the table, 4-bet me in the same manner, I push with kings, he calls with JJ. Admittedly that's wider than most nitty players' ranges will be there, but their ranges will be wide enough to make blindly getting it all in preflop with KK +EV overall I think.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
I never ever ever fold kings preflop, and honestly, I think that's a sound strategy. Not to just ignore your analysis but even the nittiest players are going to play this way with a wider range than aces. I had an almost identical hand today, nittiest player at the table, 4-bet me in the same manner, I push with kings, he calls with JJ. Admittedly that's wider than most nitty players' ranges will be there, but their ranges will be wide enough to make blindly getting it all in preflop with KK +EV overall I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't get me wrong... I've been pushing KK 100% of the time. And 90% of the time I'm thrilled to do it. But the people who have the JJ or the AK are usually the overly laggy players or shortstacks who I know will (correctly) get in with a broad range of hands.

I just think it comes up enough and in certain situations with certain players where a read should turn a push into a fold. I know that's against what this forum teaches (and I'm generally in agreement). But as we come across better players, it would seem there's room to loosen up this dogma that KK is always worth 100bb preflop.

[ADK]

pooooooooooooooo-sssssssssh

[XHitman014]

Is 150 hands really that large of a sample size that we narrow his hand down to one holding only?

I have 250-500 on some of the better players in NL50 who I know to be 2+2 & aggressive. However, their numbers don't seem as aggressive as I think they are. It could be that the 150 hands you saw he was card dead or watching tv. I'm pushing.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Is 150 hands really that large of a sample size that we narrow his hand down to one holding only?

I have 250-500 on some of the better players in NL50 who I know to be 2+2 & aggressive. However, their numbers don't seem as aggressive as I think they are. It could be that the 150 hands you saw he was card dead or watching tv. I'm pushing.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the hand its 150 hands... But I find as a general rule that if someone is playing 75/8 after 10 rotations... they're not secretly TAG. I think 150 is enough to say "this person seems pretty tight."

Its not just his stats. Its a combination of his stats, his position, my image, the number of players in the pot, my position and his 4 bet amount.

Oddly enough, I don't know why I posted. I really didn't expect that many (if any) people to agree. Yet, I've been playing for quite a while and have never been more certain what this was.

Sure there are cases where a TAG doesn't have what you think... but I really think those are the exceptions. I think there's more room for reads here then we want to give credit and finding the exceptions to the never fold Kings PF is an improvement.

[Mr_Pathetic]

Sam Farha called out Greenstein holding AA on HSP season 1 and still called.

I never fold KK preflop. It holds up too many times even if I do suspect the villain has aces.

[hra146]

[ QUOTE ]


I never fold KK preflop. It holds up too many times even if I do suspect the villain has aces.

[/ QUOTE ]


Quality post

[fees]

never fold KK pref unless villian raises 5% or less AND (this is REALLY imporant) is passive preflop