Some thoughts on SS1

[Red_Diamond]

I was re-reading a bit on Chip's chapter, and there is something I find puzzling.

Despite he seems to give rather tight play, he mentions if he finds a pair of tens, (what he calls a premium pair), and someone raises the pot with a Jack, he will play that hand to the end.

But if a higher card raises that Jack, then he will throw his hand away as he feels certain he is beat.

I just can't see this scenario of chasing your tens vs the jacks as profitable, even if it's heads up.

[chucky]

What was chip's kicker? Were there any cards greater than jack exposed?

[electrical]

I don't have it in front of me, but if he mentions his kicker being live, beating the Jack, or being a straight/flush card, then it's essentially the same advice you'd find in 7CSFAP.

[Andy B]

I'm pretty sure he mentions none of that. It might be the only thing in that chapter I don't like.

[RustyBrooks]

Well, I get the advice of tossing it if a higher card raises the J - not only is the higher card more likely to have a pair of jacks beat, the potential jacks are still to act after you so folding is just prudent.

Calling with the tens if you suspect he has jacks doesn't seem awful since sometimes he doesn't have jacks, but I don't know about playing it to the end. I've only played 500 or so hands of stud though and as with all games I don't know well I'm super weak/tight. Once I figure out the kind of junk people play I open up a lot.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
I was re-reading a bit on Chip's chapter, and there is something I find puzzling.

Despite he seems to give rather tight play, he mentions if he finds a pair of tens, (what he calls a premium pair), and someone raises the pot with a Jack, he will play that hand to the end.

But if a higher card raises that Jack, then he will throw his hand away as he feels certain he is beat.

I just can't see this scenario of chasing your tens vs the jacks as profitable, even if it's heads up.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think he is chasing jacks in his mind in this statement - I think it's just that jacks show up so much more often as part of a straight draw than a pair that he feels at that point his tens are good - but if a higher card raises, then his pair is probably "out-paired."

But I haven't read it in a couple years, so I don't remember the context of this comment.

[Red_Diamond]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure he mentions none of that. It might be the only thing in that chapter I don't like.

[/ QUOTE ]

Andy is right, though few minute points are stated.

On the subject of premium pairs, page 133:

I'd play these hands from any position, with three exceptions. If I have two concealed Tens, and an opponent in an early position has raised the pot with a Jack showing and another opponent has re-raised the Jack with a Queen-up, the chances are pretty good that I do not have the best hand. In this case, I would fold. But otherwise I would play my premium hand through until the end, with just two other exceptions.

If I started with two aces in the hole, and by the sixth card one of my opponents has a four-straight or a four-flush on the board, it's highly probable that I'd be drawing dead... and I'd be forced to throw away my hand. The other case is if my opponent pairs his first up card...

He then backs up his reasoning by:

Since you only get the premium hands about 7% of the time, you shouldn't waste the opportunities they present. These hands create your best money-making possibilities. It's important not to waste them.





Hmm.....

[Andy B]

It's true that hands like TT don't come along very often, but winning poker is not about making good hands. It's about recognizing good situations and taking advantage of them. If you have TT and a tight player raises with a Jack in the door in front of you, that just isn't a good situation, especially in a low-ante game like $10/20 which is what Chip is addressing. In Hold Me, hands like AKo and JJ don't come along very often, and I'm usually happy when they do, but there are also times that you have to fling them into the muck.

[RustyBrooks]

In limit holdem? My cold dead hands is what you'll pry AK out of, at least preflop. I've folded JJ in a very few cases. Like if I have to call 4 bets cold and at least 2 of the players are not retarded.

[Andy B]

Straightforward player raises early and another straightforward player three-bets. Both AKo and JJ go straight into the muck. I've only done either a few times, but those are pretty easy lay-downs. Also, JJ > AKo.