Optimal Went to SD %?

[SeanC]

Hey,

Generally speaking, is there an optimal % range for your Went to SD? If it matters, I play a 33/29 5 overall aggro game and my W$SD is 46% while my Went to SD is 22%.

[RustyBrooks]

No.

[SeanC]

[ QUOTE ]
No.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? There's gotta be some kind of "too high" or "too low" threshold where you're either a calling station or complete nit...?

[RustyBrooks]

* First of all, there are more games than holdem.
* Second of all, there are more betting structures than no limit, for example limit, stuctured, and pot limit
* Third of all, there are different table-sizes... 2, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10 and there will be varying degrees of fullness
8 Fourth, there are different stake levels - if you think the number should be the same for .01/.01 and 100/200, then you're wrong
* Fifth, there are varying opponent styles. Against passive opponents you will see the river more because they won't force you out. Against calling stations you will see it more because they won't fold. Against weak players you will see it less because they won't call
* Sixth, this number is totally dependent on VPIP since it's a fraction of the hands where you saw the first round of cards, and then went to showdown

There are probably more factors. Expecting this to just be some tidy number range is unrealistic.

[SeanC]

[ QUOTE ]
* First of all, there are more games than holdem.
* Second of all, there are more betting structures than no limit, for example limit, stuctured, and pot limit
* Third of all, there are different table-sizes... 2, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10 and there will be varying degrees of fullness
8 Fourth, there are different stake levels - if you think the number should be the same for .01/.01 and 100/200, then you're wrong
* Fifth, there are varying opponent styles. Against passive opponents you will see the river more because they won't force you out. Against calling stations you will see it more because they won't fold. Against weak players you will see it less because they won't call
* Sixth, this number is totally dependent on VPIP since it's a fraction of the hands where you saw the first round of cards, and then went to showdown

There are probably more factors. Expecting this to just be some tidy number range is unrealistic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops, I meant to specify NLHE. Regardless, I get the point. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Thanks.

[PantsOnFire]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
* First of all, there are more games than holdem.
* Second of all, there are more betting structures than no limit, for example limit, stuctured, and pot limit
* Third of all, there are different table-sizes... 2, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10 and there will be varying degrees of fullness
8 Fourth, there are different stake levels - if you think the number should be the same for .01/.01 and 100/200, then you're wrong
* Fifth, there are varying opponent styles. Against passive opponents you will see the river more because they won't force you out. Against calling stations you will see it more because they won't fold. Against weak players you will see it less because they won't call
* Sixth, this number is totally dependent on VPIP since it's a fraction of the hands where you saw the first round of cards, and then went to showdown

There are probably more factors. Expecting this to just be some tidy number range is unrealistic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops, I meant to specify NLHE. Regardless, I get the point. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]
This exchange has been quite amusing, thanks.

Actually, your win percentage at showdown might be an indicator of bluffing too much, not bluffing enough, folding too much, not betting enough, etc. Maybe you want to look into that.

I'm sure Rusty will point out the 84 factors you need to consider.

[RustyBrooks]

Someone who plays the same game, at the same stakes, with the same structure, same table size, etc, etc, will be able to give you feedback on whether your WTSD and W$SD are in line with what's expected. Most likely anyone without direct experience or a large pokertracker database won't be able to tell you much.

In truth WTSD and W$SD go hand in hand and you can hardly look at one without looking at the other. I don't know squat about these numbers for NLHE because that's the one game I hardly ever play online. I do know that my numbers range quite wildly for stud, holdem, split pot games, etc. For limit games having W$SD < 50% is really bad unless you play a game where either multiple people see the river often, or where lots of people call to the river and then fold to a bet. For stud type games I'm usually most interested in how often they see 6th st more than anything else.

I don't really use these numbers for evaluating my own play, unless I am seeing some real divergence between what my win rate should be, and what it is.

When looking at other players I prefer the raw WTSD number. WTSD in pokertracker is as a percentage of the time that they saw the flop. So 20% means something WAY different for a person with 80% vpip vs a person with 20% vpip. As a percentage of hands dealt, the first person sees the river 16% of the time, the second player sees the river 4% of the time. Same WTSD, very different kind of player. The first guy is not only loose, he's relatively unbluffable. Value bet, don't bluff. The second guy is way too weak. Bluff, don't value raise, don't call down light. These are broad caricatures, of course, you really need to look at multiple stats on an opponent to be able to make any serious remarks about his play.

[SeanC]

That makes sense, Rusty. I play micro limits (.25NL) for now so I could just pop over to those forums and ask.

[storman99]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey,

Generally speaking, is there an optimal % range for your Went to SD? If it matters, I play a 33/29 5 overall aggro game and my W$SD is 46% while my Went to SD is 22%.

[/ QUOTE ]

with your agressive style of play your W$SD is 46% while Went to SD is 22% is right where it should.

with 33/29/5 and 22%SD you will never be over 50% W$SD. which is'nt a bad thing playing that aggressive.
I'm guessing with 90% accuracy your overall amount won is more then amount won going to showdown.
example; if your up $1000 overall and take just the hands you went to showdown that amount will be under $1000 {guessing yours is around 30% less]
example 2; if someone had a 19/14/1.5 22%SD and is up $1000 overall there showdown win will be around $2000+

and both examples could have the same BB/100 hands

hope this helps

[SeanC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hey,

Generally speaking, is there an optimal % range for your Went to SD? If it matters, I play a 33/29 5 overall aggro game and my W$SD is 46% while my Went to SD is 22%.

[/ QUOTE ]

with your agressive style of play your W$SD is 46% while Went to SD is 22% is right where it should.

with 33/29/5 and 22%SD you will never be over 50% W$SD. which is'nt a bad thing playing that aggressive.
I'm guessing with 90% accuracy your overall amount won is more then amount won going to showdown.
example; if your up $1000 overall and take just the hands you went to showdown that amount will be under $1000 {guessing yours is around 30% less]
example 2; if someone had a 19/14/1.5 22%SD and is up $1000 overall there showdown win will be around $2000+

and both examples could have the same BB/100 hands

hope this helps

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the relpy. Regarding my winnings, I haven't played too much in this dbase (~7k) and my last 2.5k have been horribly swingy--peaked at +12 bi and am currently at -2, lol. However, before the insanity kicked in, yes a large portion of my wins came without showdowns.