ye olde preflop checkup

[bdaddy]

live 30 game. player limps UTG, I raise KJss in MP, VERY passive player directly to my left 3 bets( range=JJ+), next player cold caps( his capping range is QQ+ heavily weighted toward AA/KK), SB swallows 3.5bets cold, and UTG calls.

18:2? how much would you need to call here?

[private joker]

Insta-call, don't even think about it. Flop a flush draw, cap the flop and turn, then miss on the river and fold for one bet getting 26:1.

[BadBigBabar]

i'd fold given your reads and that action. i'd call with pocket pairs, and jts and qjs and kqs, and obv with ako, aks and aqs.

disclaimer: i'm an online player transitioning to live, and haven't played as high as a 30 game yet.

[piggity]

[ QUOTE ]
live 30 game. player limps UTG, I raise KJss in MP, VERY passive player directly to my left 3 bets( range=JJ+), next player cold caps( his capping range is QQ+ heavily weighted toward AA/KK), SB swallows 3.5bets cold, and UTG calls.

18:2? how much would you need to call here?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're actually getting 19:2 (including big blind). Depending on UTG/SB ranges, your equity here is probably slightly greater than 10%, so call I guess.

[bdaddy]

piggity, you're right, i mistyped it.

[Munchkin Mayor]

Given your read, I'd seriously consider folding. Feels like you are going to be trapped for lots of bets and, without hitting your flush, almost always lose.

[AAlphamale]

Just curious: why do you raise KJs?

[DeuceKicker]

[ QUOTE ]
Given your read, I'd seriously consider folding. Feels like you are going to be trapped for lots of bets and, without hitting your flush, almost always lose.

[/ QUOTE ]Not necessarily. The point of his read is that he knows the flop probably needs to hit him good, so he isn't going to go nuts raising if the flop comes Jack-high. And without the flush and/or straight draw he can dump it if he starts to get sammiched between the other PFRs.

[BadBigBabar]

deuce, we can play any 2 middling and up cards with that reasoning [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

in a limit vs nl game though i think sometimes these pf laydowns can be mathy and sometimes "correct"/provable

online at least, with this action, i turbomuck against solid players.

[Garland]

There was some debate earlier as to whether to call after I raise something like KJs and it comes back 2 more to me against really solid tight opponents. I've given it some extensive thought. After raising and getting 3-bet and then capped, the odds with only 3 players active [which is most likely the case and the basis for my argument] would be anywhere from 10:2 implied to 11.5:2 implied depending on if it's the blind(s) who are involved pre-flop. I still think this particular situation would be a fold [with KJs], although QJs would be a close call and JTs would be a sure call. Strange, eh? Straight draw odds are better with QJs and much better with JTs. AQs, I’m on the fence and am still thinking it’s a close fold.

After careful consideration, I'm going to back off my folding stance on calling 2 more with these hands [domination type hands with flush/straight values] if you’re given odds. My fear of domination was blinding the issue of seeing a flop only with the real intent of making a flush or straight. I will attempt to provide a mental check-list for calling 2 more with what I call “domination heavy suited hands”.

(1) You're getting at least proper odds to flop a draw. Well in your particular case you're 19:2 (including implied 3-bettor is calling one more). Well that's more than good enough for seeing a flush draw alone (8.14:1), and in addition you're also including the odds of flopping a straight draw not to mention trip/two pair combos. There are tons of players, and plenty of chance to get a huge payday. This is a clear cut call.

(2) Suppose you have 2 or 3 really aggressive opponents. Then you have to watch flopping a simple pair and getting involved in a flop raising war. You'll have to have the ability to release even if you only flop top pair and no draw.

(3) I guess it goes with (2), but playing well post-flop helps. Of course if you flop a draw, it's pretty hard to mess it up unless you fold it. But how you deal with Kxx or Jxx (no backdoor draw) flops facing aggression from multiple directions will affect the more borderline pre-flop decisions. In other words, if you’re prone to never release a pair (and hopefully you know yourself well enough you get the sense), you cannot call pre-flop even getting relatively good odds as the post-flop massacre (i.e. reverse implied odds) will erode the pre-flop odds.

Whew. A lot there, but I hope it makes sense.

Garland