stud8: peelin on 4th

[Wilson]

typical annoyin hand:

4th
(24)5 3 bet
(xx)7 k check_call

6th
(24)5 3 9 J call
(xx)7 k 2 5 bet

on the river, i'm stuck with J-high.

i typically dun peel on 4th when i brick, unless i have a good reason to (based on the board cards and pot size). i've got 2 questions (they're pretty similar!):

1. how big does the pot have to be for me to peel? (sorry, i know this is kinda general cos it also depends on ur cards and wat u think u have to beat)
2. at the limits i play (up to 2/4), A LOT of ppl come in with a brick and 2 babies. if one of them (not the sensible ones) catches good, is it ok to peel, as we're likely equal/better for low and probably better str8 possibilities? like i said... i usually do not, reasoning that a) it's not worth the risk *in case* they actually started good this time and b) they play badly enuff that there will be plenty more opportunities later when i do catch good. am i givin up too much by concedin all the pots that develop like this?

btw, pls assume the case that the cards we need are live, and that we'll be bet into again on 5th if villain's board improves or we brick again. i'm pointin out this now so that ppl won't reply sayin a peel is more warranted against a passive player who is likely to check if he bricks 5th.

thank you,
wilson

[USC@MICH]

I dont get it you didnt brick on 4th you hit perfect open ended draw. But who knows, what where the other players showing on third? Plus the guy with the K might be tricky. Ive seen that done alot. CAll the obivios low draw with 3 cards looking do bet or check raise when the brick hits on 4th or 5th. esp heads up. I do it often.

Having said that thats where knowing your players is very important, Ill 3 bet people if I think there doing this move . But you jujst have to know who your up aganist.

[Beavis68]

he is talking about his opponents play.

to peel I need something like 3 to a good low and three to a flush with live outs, or 3 to a good low and a straight plus live outs, and hopefully at least a two flush.

[USC@MICH]

Maybe the opponet planed on stealing on 5th. Ever do that? It works. Esp if you put them on a low that missed in a heads up pot.

[Wilson]

USC... like Beavis said, i was talkin abt my opponent's play. and regardin peelin to set up a checkraise on 5th/6th to set up a steal on the river... seems like a bit of a longshot on its own. i mean, if that's the only reason for peelin, a lot of things have to parlay for this to work: villain has to miss his low draw (the most important), have no/weak high hand by river (like ace high or small pair) and villain has to be willin to fold said weak high hand on the river (not likely). all of this coupled with the fact that u'd be pourin in a lot of money with a low hand that has busted... i'm not likin it too much. also i'm almost certain the players i'm talkin abt are not peelin with stealin in mind.

btw, i do often checkraise high hands on 5th and or 6th with a 4 low + str8/flush/overcard draw that bricked high on 5th. eg on 5th if i have (A2)45Q vs an obvious pair of jacks, i checkraise here almost every time. but that's totally different from wat ur suggestin. my checkraise is representin a strong high hand and the jacks will have to guess whether he is already beat (i may be rolled up, have a big pair in the pocket, or started with a 3 flush that has hit the queen) and he is usually only playin for the high half of the pot. as the JJ is only playin for half, he is a lot more likely to fold b4 the river cos he knows he might get scooped even if his jacks improve.

however, when u use the checkraise as u suggest, u are again representin a strong high hand... difference is, the low hand will think he can lock up half the pot if he hits his low and have a freeroll for the high side, which translates into fewer successful bluffs.

does my reasonin make sense here?

[Wilson]

beavis, ur suggestions coincide almost perfectly with the times i peel 4th. i'm wonderin, is it always ok to peel in the situations u mentioned, or does the pot have to be a certain size b4 this is a profitable play? and does it matter which brick u actually receive? eg. would u be more willin to peel if u hit a king than a 9? and do ur peelin standards differ against high and low hands?

also, just wanna add that i had mostly been talkin abt headsup pots; but, more generally, whether i peel often depends on my position relative to the other hands, ie. will i get jammed in!?

[SweetLuckyMe]

Depends on how much is in the pot. If there was a raise on 3rd, and you have a hidden overcard ace to potentially pair and either fairly live flush cards, or your opponents board isn't terribly scary (like xx-2,8) then probably. If he catches a scary card then it's best to just dump it.

By the way - if they repeatedly limp with 2 babies and a brick then punish them by raising 3rd with any 3 low cards containing an ace and (if you're in the right position) raises with small pairs/small kicker and big pairs. They'll be a dog to any decent hand, so punish their sorry, limping arses by building the pot early and keep firing - and even value bet the river thinly with the big pairs/2 small pair type hands vs. them. They just don't realize how hard it is to improve that junk - make them pay. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[USC@MICH]

Jamin the pot is fun [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]