.50/1- Villain Doesn't Have It

Jeff76 · #1 11-29-2006, 10:05 AM

Villain is obviously full of it here (though I think he has a big pair) Is my slowplay here wrong? Should I be raising to take down the pot?

Card Stud High ($0.50/$1.00), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.25 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.80 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in
Seat 7: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

4th Street - (2.80 SB)

Seat 4: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds

5th Street - (2.40 BB)

Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (4.40 BB)

Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

River - (6.40 BB)

Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___bets

Total pot: (8.40 BB)

cgrohman · #2 11-29-2006, 10:13 AM

Weak but not particuarly heinous. It is not a slowplay if you never actually "play." A slow play is when you simmer on a big hand and then raise and or bet at some point. You did the simmering, but not the raising or betting.

On 4th, I would normally raise, especialyl if there are other people to drive out of the pot. Here, you close the action so a call isn;t that bad. If I call on 4th, I am defnitely raising 5th and then re-evaluating on 6th.

Jeff76 · #3 11-29-2006, 10:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It is not a slowplay if you never actually "play." A slow play is when you simmer on a big hand and then raise and or bet at some point. You did the simmering, but not the raising or betting.

[/ QUOTE ]I'd have raised if I made aces up. I figured the slow play was knowing I had the bets hand and not raising. On the end I really didn't think he'd call a raise without at least two pair.

Jeff76 · #4 11-29-2006, 10:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
On 4th, I would normally raise, especialyl if there are other people to drive out of the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]If there was anyone to drive out I'd have raised.

I didn't call because it would announce my hand to villain. But I'm not sure it isn't good to just announce my hand and try to take down the pot. Hence the post [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Brad1970 · #5 11-29-2006, 11:06 AM

I would have raised 4th & tried to take it in case he had a diamond or straight draw working. Odds are that you have the best hand at this point.

PoorLawyer · #6 11-29-2006, 01:00 PM

If you call 4th, then you have to raise it on 5th when he bricks.

Is your reasoning for just calling on 4th that you want to keep the pot small in case he catches another diamond? I can accept that, but then you need to raise to charge him on 5th. You don't want to just call down here and get drawn out on...give him a reason to lay down a small pair + flush draw or whatever he may be on.

Jeff76 · #7 11-29-2006, 02:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is your reasoning for just calling on 4th that you want to keep the pot small in case he catches another diamond?

[/ QUOTE ]No- my reasoning was that I felt he wanted to rep the ace and I was willing to let him. It was pure deception on my part, which isn't something I use a lot of in Stud- and there's probably a good reason for that [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

My thinking was that if he had big pair in the hole (which was my read given my observation) and was just trying to punish the puny bring in for callilng with my ace, then he'd bet into me the whole way. If I re-raise on 4th he'll KNOW I have the ace and will not open bet into me again, so I'll have to bet into him, opening myself up to a check/raise if he improves. I guess I didn't see any advantage to giving away my hand and taking the lead in the hand.

As for punishing a diamond draw, I felt this was the least likely of his holdings given that he was continuing to show agression. Sure it's in his range, but a pair in the hole is more probable.

So that was my thinking at the time. Looking back, calling 4th and raising 5th makes a whole lot of sense. It disgusies my hand (which increases the chances he'll make a mistake) and gets two big bets in (or wins the pot outright for me, not a bad result for a single pair) rather than two small bets.

So does anyone like a check 4th, re-raise 5th line better than simply re-raising 4th? Certainly it's a superior line to what I did.

Obviously one of my issues here is thinking in terms of winning bets rather than pots- I'm sure this is normal for a lot of NL HE players who pick up Stud.

PoorLawyer · #8 11-29-2006, 03:29 PM

Well you want to win bets, not pots, but sometimes taking it down before the river is the best way to win those bets without getting outdrawn. One of the big differences between hold em and stud is that, e.g. he made kings in this hand to your aces...you are much further ahead if this is hold em because of the shared board. By letting him lead to the river, I think you are thinking you are alot further ahead in the hand than you really are. Running some sims on twodimes helps to hammer home this concept.

I think you'll place this situation differently in the future, just hopefully not against me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

as between raising 4th or 5th, you may be more likely to get a fold on 5th if you raise 4th if he is really on air or a small pair and whiffs 5th. Waiting to raise 5th will get more money in the pot when you are probably ahead and it will surely slow him down and disguise your hand. They both build fold equity and get mroe money in while you are ahead...i think you can go either way here and it is somewhat read dependent. If you think the guy is going to call you down regardless then wait until 5th and get the extra half bet in there IMO.

Brad1970 · #9 11-29-2006, 03:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously one of my issues here is thinking in terms of winning bets rather than pots- I'm sure this is normal for a lot of NL HE players who pick up Stud.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO, anyone who plays stud should play it more straight forward. Forget the FPS that everybody likes at the NLHE table & just come into a pot swinging. I know what you mean, I play alot of holdem too & everytime I sit down to play stud with a holdem player they nearly always lose because they do not adjust their game. Straight forward play is deceptive play against a holdem player in stud. Holdem players in my experience are non-believers, they think everybody's bluffing.

On the flip side of that, most newbie stud players will check/call you down just becuase they are too weak to fold or curiosity has the best of them. In the long run, you win either way.

Jeff76 · #10 11-29-2006, 03:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
IMO, anyone who plays stud should play it more straight forward.

[/ QUOTE ]I normally do. This was really the first non-obvious situation (i.e. I wasn't rolled up against tight players) that I came across where I was tempted to play slow when I was ahead.