[LO8] Two Pair in HU-Pot

[Buzz]

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just assume unknown villians hence you have to base your decision wheter to play your hand or not entirely on position/cards. still no standard play?

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Olrik - We're talking about before the flop in the cut-off position after the action described by Jim, the opening poster. Right?

And I guess it has to be the first hand of the session against players who do not know us and who we do not know because we are assuming unknown Villains. (Or I guess we could simply say early in the session before we tentatively form any conclusions). Right?

And you want us to do the same thing every time, whatever our cards are????

(I want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly).

I'm not sure how to respond. It seems common-sensible to play some hands and fold others. However, it may not be obvious what hands should be played and what hands should be folded.

And for the hands we play, it seems common-sensible to limp with pulling hands and push with pushing hands. But it may not be obvious to us, let alone our opponents, which is which.

How will it be possible for anyone who has never seen us play and who does not know us to know what we are doing?

And if we're up against opponents who have seen us play, then presumably we have also seen them play. And then other factors other than whether we have a pulling or a pushing hand affect whether we limp or raise.

Buzz

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i think wining 0.75 BB by just taking the blinds seems to be a good result.

[/ QUOTE ]And to me attempting to win only 0.75 big bets seems a waste of this fine starting hand. Moreover, when we miss a fit with the flop and would prefer to get out of a hand cheaply, having wasted an extra 0.50 big bet seems ill advised.

But don't misunderstand. I don't mind investing an extra 0.50 big bet before the flop with this fine starting hand. Indeed, I like having more money go into the pot - just so long as it doesn't push potential customers away or make them more wary or reticent when we make a nice connection with the flop.

The point is, this is a pulling hand! That doesn't mean I don't want to see money going into the pot on the first betting round! But at the same time, raising has certain ramifications. You don't just win more money from your opponents when you raise when you have an edge. You also lose more money when you lose and you also make your opponents more wary when you connect. The net you make on the hand is not necessarily affected positively when you raise before the flop with an edge (unless you get all your money in with a short stack).

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while i understand the idea of pushing vs pulling hands (or at least i try to) i would argue that with everyone folding to us in late position we need some kind of standard action with any hand we want to play.

[/ QUOTE ]I disagree.

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open limping the pullings hands and raising the pushing hands makes it easy for villians to read us

[/ QUOTE ]That's not what I am advocating. I keep writing that what I do, rightly or wrongly, depends as much or more on my opponents as on my cards. And that is what I keep meaning. I guess that must somehow not be clear to you - but I can't see how. I'm not being sarcastic or argumentative. I'm simply baffled.
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(basicly like only raising with strong AA and A2 hands).

[/ QUOTE ]Limping with pulling hands and raising with pushing hands would be similar to that, but encompassing a much broader range than that. The pulling range is every single pulling hand we play. Similarly, the pushing range is every single pushing hand we play. And "only" does not apply. Depending on the opponents playing and watching, sometimes I'll raise with a pulling hand and sometimes I'll limp with a pushing hand.
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assuming you follow my reasoning we are down to
a) openraising any hand we want to play
b) openlimp any hand we want to play
c) openlimp the pulling hands and fold playable pushing hands

[/ QUOTE ]Well... I thought I was following your reasoning, but I don't follow the logic in that last part.<ul type="square">• I'm not openraising any hand I want to play.
• I'm not openlimping any hand I want to play.
• I'm not openlimping the pulling hands and folding playable pushing hands.[/list]Instead I'm generally openlimping the pulling hands and openraising the pushing hands.
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this might be holdem mentality but dont we open up our range in o8 depending on position too?

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. The best course of action for any hand before the flop depends on position, who has acted, who is yet to act and what has transpired, both on the current deal and history of past deals and actions against these opponents.

Much of what to do before the flop in an Omaha-8 game seems relatively simple. However, some of what to do seems more complicated. Many times various factors other than the cards are involved in my decisions.

Buzz