5 CARD DRAW - KK in the BB

[forhasta]

Hi Guys.

I wonder your thoughts on this. At a 6 handed table (pot limit or fixed) with one or two tight players and a few loose players. You have KKxxx in the BB. It folds to the button who raises you a standard raise.

If the SB Folds - would you play?
If the SB Calls - would you play?

Just call or Reraise?
Would it make a difference if the button raiser was tight or loose?

I'm learning this game, and would value your input.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Guys.

I wonder your thoughts on this. At a 6 handed table (pot limit or fixed) with one or two tight players and a few loose players. You have KKxxx in the BB. It folds to the button who raises you a standard raise.

If the SB Folds - would you play?
If the SB Calls - would you play?

Just call or Reraise?
Would it make a difference if the button raiser was tight or loose?

I'm learning this game, and would value your input.

[/ QUOTE ]

Big ol' fat "it depends."

It entirely depends on the player AND whether its limit or PL.

I have notes on many players who will open any pair vs some people who only open 2 pair or better. In Potlimit... I'm much tighter and more likely to fold it unless I know the villain is really LAGGY.

LIMIT- People open lighter, particularly if its a button steal. I would call and play the hand out.

I would only reraise 1 pair hands against very specific opponents in very specific situations.

[Murakawa]

I second that. I also call in the BB for implied odds of a set or even just pot odds of 2pair in PL.

[List]

Limit: If sb calls, call with kings, especially if sb sucks. If sb folds, I will sometimes be reraising here, especially against an aggressive button. You need to at least call unless button is rediculously tight passive.

Pot Limit: If button makes a 3x-3.5x raise, and sb calls, I'll probably dump it. If sb folds, I'll often be calling, and almost never be reraising. I would rather reraise with a draw as a semi bluff than reraise with KK.

[stripsqueez]

against the usual opponent in limit i think its routine to 3 bet

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Murakawa]

Really? There is a good chance they'll have a hand as weak as nines but if they have two pair or aces you're not buying yourself a showdown when you draw 3.

[stripsqueez]

you do the math but my gut says if the usual open raise on the button range is say 88+ (i know several players who open raise almost any pair on the button) its right to 3 bet KK

the post draw is always going to be awkward particularly if they dont draw 3 but thats not a great reason to forego your pre-draw equity

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Murakawa]

Definitely 3 bet a loose player, but either way you can't really call a bet after the draw without a read. Especially if you 3bet and draw three an observant player will put you on aces and try to value bet 2 pair or better. Either way if you don't catch PostDraw is awkward but if you're willing to call 1 PD bet either way then winning or 1 extra PD bet is better than 3 betting then folding after draw. Then again many players aren't observant.

[Murakawa]

are you stealing with 88 on the button? i'll put it in my notes

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
are you stealing with 88 on the button? i'll put it in my notes

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm not advocating that steal range - its an ok default but really you want more than a default to make this decision - its routine for me to steal with less against many players - playing decent opponents predictability is the killer in limit draw

i find that 3 betting a button raise from the BB and drawing 3 enrages an opponent enough that they often call the post draw value bet when i dont improve with typical hands like 1010-QQ

if they dont draw 3 or i dont value bet then knowing when to call the post draw bet is my job as the serious player

stripsqueez - chickenhawk