a really tough and interesting hand

[Josh.]

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either way it's not a *great* situation even though we have the nuts. if you 4-bet you arent going to get much action since that's a stronger than usual 4-bet. if you call, you let in MP, who likely called with a strong range including hands with good implied odds, and SB probably won't lead without hitting the flop or having flopped a pair. but in general people are untrusting and we still have great implied odds on our hand given how much we've disguised it. no way QQ gets away now. if we 4-bet he probably has a pretty easy fold

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Most of this I agree with. You say no way QQ gets away which seems kinda contradictory as you have QQ here and your OP makes it seem like you want to get away from it on the flop. And if you don't want to get away from it on the flop, you need to 4-bet preflop for the reasons I mentioned earlier. Overall, you haven't really convinced me that calling is nearly as good as 4-betting

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i meant SB, as he's the one we're more likely to get action from. but if the flop goes SB check, UTG bet, i don't know if i can get away

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If this is true (and I think it is too), you should have 4-bet in the OP. Do you see why?

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well a case can be made for calling the flop and folding the turn, as utg won't bet hte flop unless he's value betting and he'll often check worse value betting hands on the turn ratehr than shove. so i'm not automatically getting stacked. also, if an A or K flops i'm usually dead but no one will dare try to rep the A or K so i don't end up making bad folds to JJ or 76s too often. then there is also the situation where SB bets, UTG calls, and i instamuck. so i think you're oversimplifying the situation by saying that if i cant get away in one specific situation then i should just get it in pre

[gman06]

Anyone else have opinions on whether it is best to cold call the 3-bet or 4-bet if you were UTG w/ KK or AA here against 2 relatively solid opponents?

[jrbick]

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Anyone else have opinions on whether it is best to cold call the 3-bet or 4-bet if you were UTG w/ KK or AA here against 2 relatively solid opponents?

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I think it's actually pretty close. It isn't like we're up against 2 donkies here and 4 betting is going to depend on my 4 betting frequency at this table. However, I don't think 4-betting is necessary good here. SB just showed a lot of strength and we're probably getting it ai v. him on most flops anyway. All I wonder about is whether or not it's good to give Josh odds to call for set value. I mean he could also only be calling w/ SC's here so I guess we just need to weigh his range and make a decision as to whether or not more dead money in the pot is worthwhile.


At the same time, if we're pretty certain that SB is fairly strong in this spot I'm not sure that I wouldn't just try to get the money in right now against him to push out Josh.

[DrSues02]

Definite call for me, although I usually play 2/4 and 3/6. Great odds to flop a set against two opponents. I would play very passively after the flop, even if all undercards hit. The possibility of AA or KK is too great.

DrSues02

[Rotating Rabbit]

This is already tough and we havnt even seen the flop yet.

Its such a pity UTG called, our spot heads up against SB here would be really nice.

But now that he did, I would put UTG's range at 88+, AK. I think that your presence behind keeps him in line, even if he think SB is 3-betting light. If he were to call and get tricky with some other holding he faces a nightmare if you join in behind.

SB should recognise this above, and therefore should be reluctant to call any 4-bet of yours without you beat.

So you have to call again. Unfortunately your hand is at the maximum of your range <22-QQ, rarely a suited connector> combined with the doubt that either of SB or UTG is going to be bluffing much in the hand- makes it hard to create +ev situations on more than one street.

[luckychewy]

i'm sorry but i fail to realize how this is anything but a call pf with given reads. the only info we have on sb wrt squeezing is that he's usually not a liberal squeezer/3-bettor but he's done it a few times today and hasn't shown down, so i wouldn't be drawing any conclusions just yet. and, even if he is squeezing here i think there is argument that calling>4-betting anyway. so far, so good. i'm interested to see the post flop part, though.

[good2cu]

Josh,

I'd be getting it in preflop 100% of the time here.

[good2cu]

I can't believe everyone is saying call to be honest.

[Josh.]

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $5/$10
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $980
Hero: $1008.50
CO: $934.25
Button: $2452
SB: $1810.25
BB: $1063

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to $35</font>, Hero calls, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $150</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($460, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets $300</font>, UTG folds

[cts]

Preflop I think you played fine, as jfish said, if you push you will get looked up pretty damn light but I think it's too likely one of them has a good hand. On the flop I dunno it'd be pretty crazy for him to fire a second barrel, I don't really hate just calling and not putting any more money in.