Value bet this turn ?

[Fantam]

The table seemed to have a few loose players, but there were not usually 7 to see the flop ! [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.75.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (11.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero ....?

First - Does anyone dislike the flop 3-bet for value ?

Second - With 4 opponents and 15 outs, I think that I should be able to bet the turn for value. The pots become big enough, that I would expect everyone to call.

However, is there an argument for checking the turn instead ?

Someone could easily have called my flop 3-bet with a higher flush draw.

Also if I make a straight on the river, I would be in a good position to try a check raise, if someone else bets the turn.

Thoughts ?

[Absolution]

I probably wouldn't bet the flop. I'd raise though if it came back with 4 other players.

I'd take the same approach on the turn. I'd check and if it comes back with still 4 callers I'd raise for value to trap them.

I generally don't lead out hoping for a required number of callers or semi-bluff a large field of loose players.

[NIX]

With 3 people calling 2 bets on the flop and J8x being hard for 3 people to find straight draws with, I'd probably check fearing a higher flush draw, although I'm not folding on the turn since you're probably going to get odds to chase.

However, if you are 3betting the flop for value (which I would probably do as well in the heat of battle), doesn't this make the turn an easy bet?

[sean c]

I probably check the turn. You need three of the four remaining players to call in order for it to be a value bet. You might get a free card if you check(a better hand fearing a check/raise) or be able to set up a sweet river check/raise if your OESD hits. Against seven i like the flop.

[bozlax]

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However, is there an argument for checking the turn instead ?

[/ QUOTE ]

The only argument I can see is that you're trying to set up a very, very obvious c/r. Unless these particular fish are stupider than any other fish on the planet, you aren't going to get a bet from anybody that doesn't have you pwned somehow. And worrying about setting up a c/r for the river is just FPS of the highest order.

fwiw, given the number of players seeing the turn on this board, I think your flush outs are for [censored], leaving you really only 6 straight outs. I'm not folding if the flush hits unless it's 2 to me, but I'd much rather see the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] than the A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I don't think there's any value at all in the flop 3-bet, either, although I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] the bet-out.

[Absolution]

[ QUOTE ]
although I the bet-out.

[/ QUOTE ]

enlighten.

[bozlax]

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[ QUOTE ]
although I the bet-out.

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enlighten.

[/ QUOTE ]

A bunch of limpers and a poster, you flop a four-flush on a non-straight/non-high-card board, two-card flushes are strong regardless of rank until shown otherwise, bet and see if you can take it down right there. If not, you need to play poker, which is what OP failed to do subsequently.

[Fantam]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
although I the bet-out.

[/ QUOTE ]

enlighten.

[/ QUOTE ]

A bunch of limpers and a poster, you flop a four-flush on a non-straight/non-high-card board, two-card flushes are strong regardless of rank until shown otherwise, bet and see if you can take it down right there. If not, you need to play poker, which is what OP failed to do subsequently.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the assessment. I didnt realise that the flop 3-bet was that bad.

However, it makes sense that a higher flush draw was probably out there after my flop bet was raised and then called by 3 other players.

FWIW I checked the turn, but subsequently wondered whether a bet may have been better. Checking the turn does now seem to have been best.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW I checked the turn, but subsequently wondered whether a bet may have been better. Checking the turn does now seem to have been best.

[/ QUOTE ]

Had you just called Vill's flop raise, I think you can c/c the turn. Having 3-bet, tho, and your hand improved, I think you have to bet the turn. Lots of players will go multiple bets on the flop with a draw and then chicken out and fold to one bet on the turn. So, bet out the turn because you were the last aggressor, and you have a hand that can improve. If you catch the flush on the river, bet/fold. If you catch the non-flush straight, bet/3-bet.

[IronDragon1]

No-simply because I can't play all that strongly if a diamond hits