16s: Bad Fold?

[eurythmech]

How is 1200 a "spew"?

[sippin_criss]

if u fold the flop

[eurythmech]

Yeah, but that's like saying "threebeting AA pre is such a spew" *intermission* "if you fold to a fourbet" [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[DannyOcean_]

I like to shove here pf as a general rule. What if raiser's stack wasn't perfectly aligned so that we have the odds to call anything he pushes on the flop? In other circumstances similar to this, we might be folding the flop when we whiff after he pushes the flop for a significant amount.

[eurythmech]

...then we push

[rakemeplz]

[ QUOTE ]
I have to say I like 1200, or even 1100 better than a push here.

Flop is obv a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is raising better than pushing...also if we're raising to fold vs bb I probably agree with raising less, maybe 1k?

[vers]

shoving is better than raising b/c it doesn't allow biggie to shove over the top of us and get us to fold our hand (raise is exploitable by good villains). Just raising and leaving ourselves open to a re-shove where we have to muck AK is pretty bad. You are shoving so that you don't have to muck pre facing later action (where calling would be neg ev).

Also raising to 1200 and mucking the flop is pretty horrible.

If biggie flats we'll have to proceed very carefully on missed flops (and probably makes cbetting HU vs him too risky).

[aghasax]

I'm in the push camp. Pushing puts you out of trouble if BB pushes or only calls your raise.

[eurythmech]

The thing is, big stack will nearly never push over our three bet, expecting us to fold.
If villain is solid, views us as someone who'd be able to fold TT/AK in this spot, he'd probably not risk nearly 4k HOPING we are a) not on QQ/KK+, b) folding marginal hands.

This will happen nearly never, imo.

I think our raise to 1100 or so

a) Looks way stronger than push to biggie
b) Makes pfr make retarded calls, which he wouldn't against a push

[BHokie1]

Nice post vers.

Loxxi from a couple of your post there's something you need to be doing preflop that I don't think you are.

When sizing a preflop raise, you need to be thinking what your stack will be after the raise - what the effective stacks (depending who calls) and what the pot will be if you're called. If it's going to put you in a tough spot on the flop, such as this and your KQo post, you should be pushing preflop if you are really wanting to raise.

I'd only make raises like this with hands I want action against and I'm going to put all the chips in on any flop - like AA/KK. I mix in pushing AA/KK if I have history with the players at the table.