QQ please berate me

KitCloudkicker · #1 08-05-2007, 08:25 PM

1/2 live. Villain is TAG.

1 limper to villain, who makes it $10 to go. I make it $30 with QdQh. Blinds and limper fold. Villain calls.

Flop Ax3h5h. Villain checks. I check.

Turn 7h Villain bets $50. I call?

PF RR too small? Fold turn?

EDIT: sorry stack sizes: $300 each for me and villain.

gharp · #2 08-05-2007, 08:28 PM

Stack sizes?

I think betting the flop makes this a lot easier to play, especially with the flush draw out there.

MrWookie · #3 08-05-2007, 08:31 PM

Yeah, if I'm going to put in $50 into this hand, I'd much rather do it on the flop.

KitCloudkicker · #4 08-05-2007, 08:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, if I'm going to put in $50 into this hand, I'd much rather do it on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

so betting this flop is standard with an ace hi-flop?

would it be different if the flop was AJx or ATx?

gharp · #5 08-05-2007, 08:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]

would it be different if the flop was AJx or ATx?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think so. You have the initiative and he's expecting a bet, and he's gotta think you could have an A. So you'll know exactly where you stand if he calls (and if he folds, all the better). When you check and he bets the turn, you don't know what the hell's going on.

James. · #6 08-05-2007, 09:40 PM

checking the flop is going to widen his range quite a bit.

Surf · #7 08-05-2007, 10:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, if I'm going to put in $50 into this hand, I'd much rather do it on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. IMO checking the flop and letting him bet is going to result in you having the best of it when $ goes in more often. Sometimes he'll check the turn and you can vb either the turn or river depending on your feel and how he plays.

A flop bet would be great with 66, if we had it.

Surf

KingOtter · #8 08-05-2007, 10:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
checking the flop is going to widen his range quite a bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an interesting statement I've seen a couple times and I want to make sure I understand what it means.

It means it makes it possible to be holding more hands than had he called a c-bet on the flop, right? If you c-bet on the flop and he calls you can narrow his range to include the aces. With the check now he gets the opportunity to bet with more cards than just those with an A in them.

In this case more hands than those with an A in them, or maybe even the lower Ax range which he might not call with a c-bet), does this mean that once he bets it is worth a call? He could be betting with a smaller pp representin' the A. Or just representin' a hit of some kind to your whiff.

Am I getting the implications correct?

Grunch · #9 08-05-2007, 10:58 PM

Checking the flop is best here, strange as it may seem. If you bet, he will almost never call with a hand like JJ or TT. But if you check it behind, he will have a hard time putting you on an Ace on the turn. If he bets the turn, you can call and then call the river. If he checks the turn, you can bet and then bet the river. If at any point he raises you, release the hand.

This is a classic WA/WB situation, in which we need to balance a few different things. We need to control the size of the pot so it doesn't get too big. (Our hand isn't worth our stack.) Yet we don't want to pot to be so small that we don't get any value. Plus we have position thruought the hand, which we can use to our advantage by forcing the opponent to betray the strength of his hand when he flopped somethgin very strong. Two streets of value is about right for this hand.

MrWookie · #10 08-06-2007, 12:22 AM

I'm surprised you're advocating two streets of value with 2nd pair. Two streets of value is what is commonly advocated with TPTK against unknowns.