Did I play this right ?

[DBSpecial]

Wouldn't TOP (p. 74, 132) suggest a turn raise to knock out the weaker hands after us, even if we think we have the second best hand?

[Dankenstein]

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't TOP (p. 74, 132) suggest a turn raise to knock out the weaker hands after us, even if we think we have the second best hand?

[/ QUOTE ] I don't understand this. If we are beat, we are beat. Knocking out the other hands that are beat as well won't stop us from not having the best hand. can someone please elaborate on this concept for me ?

[ChickenGeorge]

You increase your pot equity. You "clean your outs". For example if you hold two overcards against a lower made pair (let's say A and Q) and you make people who reverse dominate you to fold their hands, you increase you chances of winning (i.e. you don't lose to two-pair when you hit a pair). Or maybe if one of your outs would also help someone else to complete his GSD, you don't want him to stick around either.

So if the pot is big enough, an increase in your pot equity outweighs the extra cost you have by putting in an extra bet.

I hope I explained it clearly enough.

[ChickenGeorge]

Oh, one more thing - you don't clean exactly your outs, cleaning other cards is also important so "blank" cards remain blank. Let's say you hold KQ on the flop J92. Even though at the moment the best hand out there is, let's say, JT, you want another player to fold his 98. You don't want to hit your K on the turn just to lose to 8 on the river.*


*let's just assume here that a player with 98 is a calling station who calls down any pair (for 1 bet) and wouldn't fold on the turn when JT dude gets scared by your flop raise and check-calls your turn bet.

[Ulkis]

ChickenGeorge, you talking about "hidden" outs, re: SSHE?

[ChickenGeorge]

No, hidden outs is something different. They are outs you "don't see". An example:
You hold AA on a QJ57 board. Your opponent holds QJ. Here you don't only have 2 outs (two aces) but also 6 more "hidden" outs. They are not obvious to you but all fives and sevens definitely help you here as well.


But Dankenstein is asking about a different concept here.

[TomTom]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
MP3 has an 8 like every time here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, why do we call then?

[/ QUOTE ]

Metagame, meaning we still have outs if behind, and we don't want an observant opponent to note us as weak-tight folding to any scare card.

[MrWombat]

Alright, good point!

But I still like raising here. It represents KK (as you said), so the blinds will prob. fold their draws. 8x or even slowplayed 99 will (hopefully) not 3-bet, fearing the boat.

Raising costs 2 BB now, but is likely to get us HU. Calling down is 2 BB too, but with 2 guys drawing at us ...

I would feel more like 8x here, if MP3 cr. It's such a sweet spot for that...

Of course, if I get 3-bet here, I'm switching to metagame-mode...