AP thread 87.1 - waiting on the statement ITT

[teddyFBI]

Why did my post in the last monster thread get deleted?
It was the one with some biographical info about Oscar Hilt Tatum, IV, all publicly available on the internet. There was nothing scandalous (I even stated as much in the post), no speculation, nothing. It was just a post more or less summarizing things that had been posted in other posts. Then this morning I wake up to "Post deleted by Mat Sklansky". Why? Whose interests do you think were compromised by the post and what is worth "protecting"?

I'm one of the "good guys" in this whole ordeal, and I would have expected at least a PM explaining why something that took me a good deal of time to put together was zapped.

[aislephive]

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What a stupid, head-in-the-sand policy. It sets the stage for cheating that isn't even thinly veiled and is the reason why the online kids are not getting seats at the adult gaming table in the United States.



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You don't really believe what you just wrote, do you?

[Schneids]

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For cash games, I think that estimation of EV lost is probably the only "fair" way to go about recompense. Take the total amount of money that a cheater won, and compensate it to affected cash game players as a percentage of the hands that they played against the cheaters vs. total number of opponent-hands that the cheaters faced off against in affected hands. It's before noon here on Sunday so you're not about to see any equations from me, suffice to say that it should be the most accurate gauge of EV lost due to being at a table with a cheater in a cash game.

Of course this will affect the players that lost at a faster to the cheater than others, which probably has nothing to do with skill (or may in fact have an inverse relation), but unfortunately that's probably going to have to be written off as part of the normal variance of gambling. I don't see a solution to the payout issue that's not going to have that as an issue.

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AP has all of the hands. Why can't they just upload them to Poker Tracker, and go to the Misc Tab, and then see the won/lost totals against everyone. If they did that, they'd see for instance that I lost just over $7000 to GRAYCAT. There really is no need for a payout on a per/hand basis, unless they are going to award me that $7000+ AND an additional X$/hand played with GRAYCAT.

[burningyen]

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1) Nobody is going to jail. This private company operates in a foreign country - and all of its principals live in foreign countries. The reason they do this is to avoid the law, and they do it successfully. Pleas along the lines of "somebody has to go to jail" are pointless.

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They are in a foreign country to avoid the reach of US anti-gambling laws. Costa Rican and Panamanian law may be a joke, who knows, but there is at least some chance that they can be prosecuted in those jurisdictions. Someone pointed out that local authorities may be more than happy to make examples of gringos who try to use their country to commit crimes.

[bronx bomber]

I just googled Costa Rica police while looking for a phone number-Just an FYI. The only numbers they list for tourists are in case the police try to confiscate your travel documents or if you want to report corruption. Don't hold your breath on the CR authorities getting involved.

[PartyGirlUK]

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For cash games, I think that estimation of EV lost is probably the only "fair" way to go about recompense. Take the total amount of money that a cheater won, and compensate it to affected cash game players as a percentage of the hands that they played against the cheaters vs. total number of opponent-hands that the cheaters faced off against in affected hands. It's before noon here on Sunday so you're not about to see any equations from me, suffice to say that it should be the most accurate gauge of EV lost due to being at a table with a cheater in a cash game.

Of course this will affect the players that lost at a faster to the cheater than others, which probably has nothing to do with skill (or may in fact have an inverse relation), but unfortunately that's probably going to have to be written off as part of the normal variance of gambling. I don't see a solution to the payout issue that's not going to have that as an issue.

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AP has all of the hands. Why can't they just upload them to Poker Tracker, and go to the Misc Tab, and then see the won/lost totals against everyone. If they did that, they'd see for instance that I lost just over $7000 to GRAYCAT. There really is no need for a payout on a per/hand basis, unless they are going to award me that $7000+ AND an additional X$/hand played with GRAYCAT.

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I think this is what they should do. Refund the amount lost + say 10bb/100 for limit and 25ptbb/100 for nl.

[Shaffer]

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AP has all of the hands. Why can't they just upload them to Poker Tracker, and go to the Misc Tab, and then see the won/lost totals against everyone. If they did that, they'd see for instance that I lost just over $7000 to GRAYCAT. There really is no need for a payout on a per/hand basis, unless they are going to award me that $7000+ AND an additional X$/hand played with GRAYCAT.

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I'm not saying they couldn't, I'm saying they probably won't. And I'm saying that it's not necessarily the most fair way of going about it.

Look at it this way. Let's say someone showed up at Greycat's table and played exactly one hand against him. That hand happened to be hypotheticalplayer's set vs. Greycat's overset and played out exactly as it would have had had no cheating occurred, resulting in hypotheticalplayer losing $1k. Does hypotheticalplayer deserve to get that full $1k back when they only played that one hand and, while they were technically "cheated", didn't really lose anything more than the normal variance one expects at a poker table, and weren't affected by the player in question being a cheater any more than they would have been had he been legit?

All I'm saying is that an estimated EV calc, if done right, would probably be closer to fair in this case.

[helemaalnicks]

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They are in a foreign country to avoid the reach of US anti-gambling laws. Costa Rican and Panamanian law may be a joke, who knows, but there is at least some chance that they can be prosecuted in those jurisdictions. Someone pointed out that local authorities may be more than happy to make examples of gringos who try to use their country to commit crimes.


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I did. Taxin was not a Thai suspect until he went out and bought man city, that was when thailand saw that the whole world could see how crappy their government was.

They are also well known for not prosecuting pedofiles, but then one was on every newsstation of the world, and in two days he was eating cockroaches in thai jail.

But this is different, because american police has jurisdiction over this.

The international law regarding this was made when a guy, standing in country A, shot someone standing in country B, and got prosecuted for it in country A, despite the fact that country B wanted to do that. It's about the reach of the crime in this case, and this crime has been committed on american soil, because people that were harmed were playing in america (i assume).

[jman220]

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Why did my post in the last monster thread get deleted?
It was the one with some biographical info about Oscar Hilt Tatum, IV, all publicly available on the internet. There was nothing scandalous (I even stated as much in the post), no speculation, nothing. It was just a post more or less summarizing things that had been posted in other posts. Then this morning I wake up to "Post deleted by Mat Sklansky". Why? Whose interests do you think were compromised by the post and what is worth "protecting"?

I'm one of the "good guys" in this whole ordeal, and I would have expected at least a PM explaining why something that took me a good deal of time to put together was zapped.

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Did the post contain photographs?

[ikestoys]

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For cash games, I think that estimation of EV lost is probably the only "fair" way to go about recompense. Take the total amount of money that a cheater won, and compensate it to affected cash game players as a percentage of the hands that they played against the cheaters vs. total number of opponent-hands that the cheaters faced off against in affected hands. It's before noon here on Sunday so you're not about to see any equations from me, suffice to say that it should be the most accurate gauge of EV lost due to being at a table with a cheater in a cash game.

Of course this will affect the players that lost at a faster to the cheater than others, which probably has nothing to do with skill (or may in fact have an inverse relation), but unfortunately that's probably going to have to be written off as part of the normal variance of gambling. I don't see a solution to the payout issue that's not going to have that as an issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

AP has all of the hands. Why can't they just upload them to Poker Tracker, and go to the Misc Tab, and then see the won/lost totals against everyone. If they did that, they'd see for instance that I lost just over $7000 to GRAYCAT. There really is no need for a payout on a per/hand basis, unless they are going to award me that $7000+ AND an additional X$/hand played with GRAYCAT.

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I think this is what they should do. Refund the amount lost + say 10bb/100 for limit and 25ptbb/100 for nl.

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reasoning for these numbers? or is this just arbitrary?