An absolutly WORLD CLASS play in my opinion......your thoughts please

skin city · #1 07-23-2007, 05:59 AM

ok heres the deal, i live in vegas and the other night i was playing the 2am tourney at binions, and there is a guy at my table who has been making some pretty good reads, some nice plays, etc. and then about 2 hours into the tourney, the fallowing took place:
we'll start with the players and their chip stacks so you can really get a feel of what went down.
The first player is in seat 3, his name is Andy Nguyen. he is actually a dealer at the horseshoe and he also won a wsop braclet in event #1 (i think) in 2005 (look it up)
andy has around 4500 chips.
the second player, i dont know his name and have never seen him before, so ill call him solid player or (SP)
SP has around the same chip stack, maybe 5000 in chips, and he is in seat 7
OK, heres the hand and how it played out:
the button is in seat 1, blinds are 75-150. all players fold around to SP in seat 7, he calls the 150, one more caller in seat seat 9, then it folds around to andy on the BB, andy raises to 400, then back around to SP, and SP makes the call, seat 9 folds.
we get heads-up to a flop of Ac 8h 4d......andy, acting first, fires out 600....SP calls
the turn card brings the Ks....andy then fires out a bigger bet of 1600 chips. (at this point im putting andy on a big ace, probably AQ) now here is where the hand gets interesting....SP starts talking to himself and goes into the tank for 40-50 seconds and peeks back down at his cards and says to andy, "man andy i feel like you got it, i got a nice hand, but i feel like you got it" he then says to andy,"if i fold will you show me?" and andy being a generally nice guys says "yeah sure ill show"
SP then turns his cards face up to reveal pocket 4's for bottom set, and then says "you got it andy, nice hand"
andy stands up! and says "What!!?? your folding??!!" "your really gonna fold a set!!??" he does fold and andy says ok ill show...and turns over pocket 8's for middle set!!!!

Now ive been playing poker now for about 6-7 years in vegas and i watch it all the time on t.v. and i dont think ive ever seen a laydown like that, especially when you consider that there wasnt a HUGE amount action pre-flop, there was no draws on the board, and the fact that 9 out of every 10 players would have played an AQ or maybe AJ the exact same way, (raise from the button in a limped pot, make a continuation bet on the flop when you hit top pair, and then raise the price when the "scare" card being the Ks hits the turn)
another thing that makes that play so amazing was the fact that andy's bet on the turn wasnt like it was putting SP all-in and his tourney was in jeopardy!
i sat and went over this hand again and again in the past 30 hours or so and i cant figure out how the hell this guy made that read, again andy is a VERY solid player, hell he won a wsop bracelet for christ sake! and this guy totally out-played andy the whole way....im kind of still in awe and am hoping some day to get to the level, to be able to make HUGE (and by HUGE, i mean WORLD CLASS) plays like that.
am i crazy to be thinking about this hand so much? have i lost my mind? or was that one SICK ASS FOLD?????
i would love to hear your input on this and also if you have any questions before you comment, ask and ill try and remember any other details i can.....
thanks guys for your input
"Skin City"

qpw · #2 07-23-2007, 06:21 AM

How do you know that he outplayed 'Andy' and wasn't just someone who occasionally plays hunches and got lucky?

skin city · #3 07-23-2007, 06:29 AM

dont think he just played his hunch and got lucky! he had been calling peoples hands almost perfectly the whole tournament....also how mant times do you fold a set on a board like that, regardless if its bottom set or not?

qpw · #4 07-23-2007, 06:38 AM

The fact he spent 45 seconds making his decision and started talking to himself made me wonder if he was just playing a hunch.

Or maybe he spotted some tells that made him feel he shouldn't continue?

Gonso · #5 07-23-2007, 06:47 AM

First off, try describing the action by position, not seat number. Andy's on the BB, SP is in the middle, 3rd caller is the CO or whatever.

Anyway, this solid player open limps a pair from around MP, which tells me he's probably not all that solid. Coupled with the god awful laydown, I'd say he has no idea what he's doing.

Flip-Flop · #6 07-23-2007, 07:03 AM

The fold is a -EV play, so the only possible explanation for the laydown is that the guy picked up an extremely accurate physical tell on Andy.
You not gonna see anything like this online.

skin city · #7 07-23-2007, 07:07 AM

did anyone see the episode of "poker after dark" on or around july 1st? if you didnt here's what happend: it was a very similar situation with gabe kaplan flopping a set of tens and ali nejad flopping a set of fours i think the flop was something like Ac Th 4d....anyway after a little action post flop gabe puts ali all in, and ali takes about 4-5 minutes before making the call, and of course losing. but afterward howard lederer and kristy gazes and annie duke are all talking about what a great "almost fold" it was and how they were so impressed by the fact he didnt call right away. in fact most of them said they would have beat gabe in the pot!
i know its not exact but it was pretty dam close to the situation im refering to, and these are pro's who having been doing this for years and years......just thought i'd add that

Flip-Flop · #8 07-23-2007, 07:26 AM

Sorry but the PAD hand is nothing like the Vegas laydown you witnessed.
Ali gave the hand a thought because he knew Gabe had some kind of hand and he didn`t want to be first one to go out ( as he mentioned himself). He was never going to muck though, and he shouldn`t.

The Vegas laydown is interesting because the guy set-mined, floped it, slowplayed it and then for whatever reason decided to fold the turn.
Like I said, it`s a bad play long term but from time to time you`ll see some impressive things like this that don`t seem logical at the time.
It`s too late now but the best way for you to unravel this mystery would have been to ask the guy afterwards why in the god`s name did he muck a set. He prolly wouldn`t have told you but I`m pretty sure it had something to do with a strong tell that he picked up.

Many people don`t like plays like this but I do.
I like it when on rare occasions math, probability and logic take a backseat and the guy still makes the right decision.

ps: Ignore bad spelling/grammar [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Gonso · #9 07-23-2007, 09:57 AM

You just can't make this fold in a tournament, I'm sorry. If you make folds like this, you'll occasionally be right, but you'll be wrong a lot more often. A set of fours is KILLING any normal players' range here. You're beating everything but a higher set - you could be against any overpair, TPTK, possibly two pair or a flat out bluff, ... etc.

Not only do you not fold this turn, you figure out how to get all of the money in the middle. Flops don't get much better than that for 44, I mean you're always going to have overcards when you flop a set. If youre going to play a set of fours this weak don't even play small pairs to begin with (much less limp-call).

gxc999 · #10 07-23-2007, 10:53 AM

I think Gonso is right on the money here. Why even limp w the pocket 4s if you're going to fold a set like that? Moreover, in tournaments you've gotta be willing to "put the whip to your big hands and let them carry you home" just like Dan H. said. I suspect either the player was a bit deranged or had some sort of reliable tell on his opponent. Maybe it was just a hunch.