Butchered hand but questions along the way

Cap_Of_Water · #1 02-06-2007, 08:21 PM

villian 17/13/5 i dont usually 3 bet but spots like this i feel he is folding alot of worse hands that i will get more value from. plus i want one of the blinds to call cause they are bad. Anyway, if no fish in sb and it was HU do you do anything other than call flop? Turn is fold, but once you get to this river, thoughts on shoving? or do we have too much show down value??
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($211.75)
SB ($205.80)
BB ($667.05)
UTG ($506.15)
MP ($227.70)
CO ($195)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP raises to $8, 1 fold, Hero calls $8, 1 fold, BB calls $6.

Flop: ($25) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP bets $20, Hero calls $20, BB folds.

Turn: ($65) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP bets $44, Hero calls $44.

River: ($153) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $153

snakekilla88 · #2 02-06-2007, 08:22 PM

I 3bet this preflop all day to $25. As played interesting...and I guess fine.

DaCooler · #3 02-06-2007, 08:28 PM

i think you at least have to raise the flop to find out where your at... im not sure i can call that turn bet either, he could have AA AK KQ QQ you really just dont know

Tarheel · #4 02-07-2007, 01:56 PM

I think you played this hand fine. Why are you insistent that the turn is a fold?

Mossberg · #5 02-07-2007, 02:10 PM

I think the turn is usually a fold here. Think of the range that a 17/13 is betting into 2 players on that flop, and then firing again into you (he's gotta be suspicious) on the king turn. Maybe he is just solid and sees the king as an opportunity to get you off a better hand, but more often than not you're crushed there.

Anyways, I think 3betting preflop makes these hands so much easier to play postflop. Dooo it!

lucky_mf · #6 02-07-2007, 02:16 PM

I think its fine although I can see an agrument for raising the flop. Raising the flop would i) define your hand and let you know where you at ii) would give you a chance to win the pot right there.

I can also see an agrument for playing the hand exactly as you did (i.e. just calling). A pot sized flop raise is going to cost you $85 (calling $20 and raising $65). While you could raise less, a respectable raise isn't going to cost you less than 65 (calling the 20 and making it 45 to go). If MP is just c-betting the flop there is a good chance he will slow down on the turn. Even if he does bet the turn, the bet is not likely to be much more than the flop raise raise would have cost you, and there is an excellent chance that he will check the river if you call turn, allowing you to show down JJ fairly cheaply.

Lucky

setjes · #7 02-07-2007, 02:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the turn is usually a fold here. Think of the range that a 17/13 is betting into 2 players on that flop, and then firing again into you (he's gotta be suspicious) on the king turn. Maybe he is just solid and sees the king as an opportunity to get you off a better hand, but more often than not you're crushed there.

Anyways, I think 3betting preflop makes these hands so much easier to play postflop. Dooo it!

[/ QUOTE ]

BDaws · #8 02-07-2007, 02:24 PM

I think this is fine. I wouldn't fold the turn because most people have engrained in their heads that they must fire a second barrel when a high card hits on the turn. Also, not all 17/13's are betting with KQ, KJ there. They would favor pot control and they don't want to get raised and have to fold.

Mossberg · #9 02-07-2007, 02:36 PM

The problem is that Kx is in alot of his range, so it's a genuine value bet more often than a bluff. Seriously, give him a range and tell me what worse hands he is playing like this. 78/TT, I dunno, it seems that there are alot more hands that crush us than hands we can reasonably hope to beat.

BDaws · #10 02-07-2007, 03:39 PM

There are a ton of hands we beat in his range. Any pocket pair that doesn't have a set, AQ, AJ type hands, JTs, suited connectors like T9, etc. Everyone c-bets this flop and the K is a great card to double barrel that he will bet with most of his range, especially if he sees you as a tight player who is calling the flop with TT, 88, 66-33.

I have found that most 17/13 type players will double barrel here with air, but will c/c to make money from floats when they actually have a K. They must be uncomfortable putting 2 solid bets in with a semi-strong made hand. Or the prospect of getting raised and not knowing what to do deters them from betting. I'm not really sure what it is.