I Have No Idea

[bugstud]

fold? clearly picked up fd on turn and got there.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

fold. jtdd so likely.

btw against most 1/2 players this is a 3-bet even more so with the guy in between to give you some overlay.

[Schneids]

BTW the fact it's a good player raising you on the turn, IMO INCREASES the fact you should be three-betting the turn, as most good players are not nitty enough to only raise you with hands better than A4 (esp when factoring in idiot cold calling overlay).

Also, as I already told you in IM, I don't fold the river. Why? Cuz it's 2 pair in a big pot -- that's ample reason.

[bicyclekick]

like I also told you on aim I think it's a call on the river.

[daryn]

good reasoning for a turn 3 bet. maybe i pussed out because i lose every single hand these days.

[andyfox]

"Clearly?" Pokerbob is getting 16:1 here. I don't think it's that clear.

[ggbman]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW the fact it's a good player raising you on the turn, IMO INCREASES the fact you should be three-betting the turn, as most good players are not nitty enough to only raise you with hands better than A4 (esp when factoring in idiot cold calling overlay).

Also, as I already told you in IM, I don't fold the river. Why? Cuz it's 2 pair in a big pot -- that's ample reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree with the first part, if it was a bad player (unless of course they were bad in a spewtastic way) 3 betting would not be prudent IMO, but i def. think that we can 3 bet for value here with the other dummy in the pot, especially since even good live players often showdown AK more often then they should (which is almost never) after u 3-town the turn.

However i disagree about the river. Yes it's a big pot, but this is an instance here where we can really narrow down hand ranges a lot here IMO. So we're worried about the bad limper... what could he have? He could have another A4 and play it the same way through the first two streets, but his river action is not consistent with that at all. A bad player might certainly limp Q8s, but he would have to slowplay the flop, give the speel n the turn, and then try donk the river for some reason. The real issue on the river is, there is not really a single hand we can put this guy on that we beat without A LOT of stretching and hoping that his play on one street was COMPLETLEY inconsistent with the last. Yeah the pot is big, when when you cannot even label one hand in the deck that you beat that makes sense, 16:1 just isnt enough here IMO. Also fwiw, from reading bobs last few posts i think he has been folding in some spots in big bots with pretty good hands where i would not, but we are really chasing a parlay here, i think the limper should have us beat more than enough to make this a fold, assuming we aren't even behind the button which we could well be.

[weaktightluckbox]

The problem with this hand is that it is already terribly obvious what you have. The fact that you limped in preflop, bet the flop and the turn tells the button (who is a good player) that you have less than A 10 and by now most likely two pair (A4 is a logical combo). Armed with this info, he wants to kick out the horrible idiot and knows it would be very difficult for you to three bet him regardless of his holdings. When the idiot cold calls two and bets the river, it is a super marginal call for you if this player is the one that I think he is. He has called me down very thin before but when he bets into this board with all the action on previous streets, he likely has the goods. Also, I'm not sure if you can even beat the button. A few hands come to mind that can beat you..i.e AQ, AA, AdKd, QQ. So I don't think you can beat both players and win the pot at this point.

A better way to define hands is to raise before the flop. Depending on the action if you did raise, you may be able to get away from your hand on the flop.

[jgorham]

[ QUOTE ]
100/200

2 players limp, (the 2nd of which is a horrible dummy), I limp next in with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], button (good player) raises, blinds call, we call.

6 to the flop (12sb)of A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
checks to me and i donk, button raises, only the horrible dummy coldcalls.

turn 3 ways for 9bb: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
check, i donk, button raises, horrible dummy exhales and says "i have to call" and calls two cold, i......

[/ QUOTE ]

It was great meeting you Bob. If I ever call someone a "horrible dummy" I never fold to them in a big pot for one bet. They get to be called horrible dummy for a reason; a large percentage of their play isn't rational, and when you only need to win the pot 5-10% of the time, the horrible dummy factor should be large enough.

[AndyatSD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
100/200

2 players limp, (the 2nd of which is a horrible dummy), I limp next in with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], button (good player) raises, blinds call, we call.

6 to the flop (12sb)of A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
checks to me and i donk, button raises, only the horrible dummy coldcalls.

turn 3 ways for 9bb: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
check, i donk, button raises, horrible dummy exhales and says "i have to call" and calls two cold, i......

[/ QUOTE ]

It was great meeting you Bob. If I ever call someone a "horrible dummy" I never fold to them in a big pot for one bet. They get to be called horrible dummy for a reason; a large percentage of their play isn't rational, and when you only need to win the pot 5-10% of the time, the horrible dummy factor should be large enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree with what most everyone have said (3 bet the turn, call the river) - I do wonder how much weigh do you all put on the guy's 'I have to call' talk? Although it's hard to explain, hearing him say this makes me actually more inclined to call that river. And yeah I agree with Schneids - two pair (aces up at that!) in a huge pot = call one more on river. Is this horrible dummy in a play super passive way? Or horrible dummy in a like-to-make-moves and make irrational plays way? The latter one needs to be called down here.

~andy