TAG v. LAG style of play in MSSH (Cross-Post from SSSH Forum)

[colgin]

Stellar Wind made the following observation in a post in SSSH:

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A lot of you guys want to move up sometime. I have learned the hard way that TAG is literally a losing style in higher 6-max games. Controlled, skillful LAGs dominate the games. They are a large majority of the players who play day-in, day-out and win lots of money.

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The complete thread can be found:

Here

Stellar's comments generated a good deal of response, but I thought it would be interesting to get the reactions from other 2+2ers who actually play in the $20/40 and up 6-max online games (as opposed to those of us strivers in SSSH).

Mods: If this type of cross-post is not OK then move or delete. I just thought it would be good to get input on this topic from the Mid-High SH FOrum.

[Victor]

whats the cut off between tag and lag?

[MATT111]

Read the SS thread. He really is talking about people with >40% VPIPs.

[colgin]

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Read the SS thread. He really is talking about people with >40% VPIPs.

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I think he is talking about people with between 30%-40% typically, but as high as 40+%. Also, he is stating that TAG's with VPIP less than 25% (and perhaps 25-30%) simply aren't seen in those games because, presumably, it is a losing style of game.

[admiralfluff]

[ QUOTE ]
I think he is talking about people with between 30%-40% typically, but as high as 40+%. Also, he is stating that TAG's with VPIP less than 25% (and perhaps 25-30%) simply aren't seen in those games because, presumably, it is a losing style of game.

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Yes, but his main point is that in this wide range of 25-45%, VPIP has little impact on earn. The most important preflop factor is preflop aggression (which can also be measured by difference between VPIP and PFR, or %call).

I don't think 25/17 has always been a sub-optimal strategy, and people were winning with it before because the games were so easy. The texture of the games have changed a lot, and with it, winning strategy.

There are still seats where it's correct to play 26/20, but there are more where it's correct to play 35/25. You might be (maybe *should be*) surprised to see how much variation there is in your stats between significant sessions. These aren't solely due to card variance or mood, but largely to the makeup of a given table.

If anything SW's post illustrates how ridiculous it is to evaluate your play based on preflop stats, or strive to hit a certain target. At one seat I'm running at 39/30 6-haned, and at another I'm running at 28/22 6-handed, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[Victor]

filtered for 5/6, my last 67k hands im at 26/19. close to 1bb/100.

[MATT111]

Playing 40% of my starting hands certainly is a theoretical mistake at a 6-player table. If my opposition makes bigger mistakes I can make up for my mistake if I play well.
If I am good enough to get away with such a style it almost certainly would be at a lower rather than a higher limit.

[DpR]

I certainly do not particularly fear 40/30 players at 50/100+. In fact, I seek them out.

There are plenty of flaws with SW's "study", however, they are not interesting to discuss.

In higher limit SH game, while preflop stats can certainly ensure you are a loser, they most definitely do not take you far in becoming a winner.

[surfdoc]

I looked at that thread and have serious concerns with respect to the methodology of that "study". While I don't have proof to the contrary and accept the possiblity that the LAG style may be the winningest long term for the most skilled, the sample size issue is pretty tough to ignore. 7K hands is not even close to enough hands on anyone to draw any meaningful conclusions.

Stellar if you are out there, could you please describe exactly what you looked at while studying this database. For example: what percentage of all players had a VPIP over 35 and what percentage of them were winners? Likewise for the VPIP 25s. What I am concerned about here is bias of many types.

This reminds me of that stat "90% of car accidents take place within 2 miles of your home" or however it goes. They don't mention that 95% of all the time spent in the car is within 2 miles of home.

[Zobags]

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This reminds me of that stat "90% of car accidents take place within 2 miles of your home" or however it goes. They don't mention that 95% of all the time spent in the car is within 2 miles of home.

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Exactly, 100% of pots are won by people who are in them. Better get that VPIP up! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]