Simple Basic Newbie Question......

[srodgers1981]

These are actual hands from games that I was in. I’m trying to learn to count outs. I would appreciate it if someone could look at the below samples and show me what the outs are and how you came up with them... pretty basic stuff but I'm having a hard time seeing the right outs.
Thanks..

[5h 7s]
*** FLOP *** [Kd 3h Jh]
*** TURN *** [Kd 3h Jh] [9h]

[Ad 2c]
*** FLOP *** [Jc Ks Kh]
*** TURN *** [Jc Ks Kh] [As]

[Jc 8d]
*** FLOP *** [6c Jd Kh]
*** TURN *** [6c Jd Kh] [4h]

[2h Ks]
*** FLOP *** [2c 5s Qh]
*** TURN *** [2c 5s Qh] [5d]

[JSmith2007]

Hand #1 - I think you may be drawing dead here. Depending on how many players are in the pot, and previous betting actions and reads, it's likely your 5 of hearts is no good anyway, should a river heart hit. Assuming you have the best heart in the hand, you'd have 9 outs. There are 13 hearts in the deck, minus the 4 you need for a flush already seen, gives you 9 more suited hearts to come. Most people will obviously adjust this number because the likelihood NOBODY else had a heart and folded somewhere along the line is unlikely. I'm going to say you've got ~7 outs, maybe drawing dead though.

Hand #2 - Again, you can't just count outs based on hands like this. You need betting action and reads to put your opponents on a hand. Assuming he doesn't have a king here, you don't need to be drawing to anything. You're ahead. If he has a king, you're drawing to 3 aces. Maybe 2 for adjustments.

Hand #3 - Again, betting action and reads. Assuming no king, you're probably ahead and having opponents are drawing/counting outs to you. Assuming he has a king, you're drawing to 6 outs. 3 jacks and 3 8's still left in the deck to make a better hand than a pair of kings.

Hand #4 - This one is a little easier, but still could use betting action and reads. Assuming opponent has a queen, you're drawing to 6 outs again. 3 2's and 3 kings left in the deck. Assuming opponent has a 5, you're drawing dead (0 outs), more or less, get out of this hand before the river hits.

[MattGN]

(Keep in mind I am relatively new, so this may not be correct.)

Hand #1

FLOP - You're 4.2% to hit that 3-flush by the river. When calling bets, keep in mind you'll need to see the river in order for the percentage to be viable.

TURN - You have 9 outs (you see 3 hearts on the board, plus one in your hand, and with 13 cards per suit, there are nine left). This amounts to about 20% to hit on the river.

Hand #2

FLOP - There is no low straight draw for you here, so I assume you'll have found weakness and be looking to pair either your two or your ace on the turn. You have 6 outs or 13% to hit on the turn, and by the river about 24%.

TURN - You have 2 outs to hit your ace (4.4%) and 3 outs for your two (7%).

Here's the resource I used to determine this, see if you can't figure out the last two.

http://www.pokerupdate.com/pokerodds.htm

[I think a fairly simple rule is that if you want to hit by the river from the flop you multiply your outs by 4 and add 2 and that is your percentage, and if you want to hit by the turn from the flop you multiply your outs by 2 and add 2 for your percentage.]

[srodgers1981]

This is what I came up with for the correct answers to COUNTING OUTS.
If anyone sees anything wrong please let me know.
Look forward to the replies… I’m still learning….

[5h 7s]
*** FLOP *** [Kd 3h Jh] six outs: 3 fives 3 sevens
*** TURN *** [Kd 3h Jh] [9h] 9 outs: but I don’t believe 5 high flush will hold up

[Ad 2c]
*** FLOP *** [Jc Ks Kh] 3 outs: 3 aces
*** TURN *** [Jc Ks Kh] [As] two outs: 2 aces

[Jc 8d]
*** FLOP *** [6c Jd Kh] 5 outs: 2 jacks 3 eights
*** TURN *** [6c Jd Kh] [4h] 2 outs: 2 jacks

[2h Ks]
*** FLOP *** [2c 5s Qh] 5 outs: 2 deuces 3 kings
*** TURN *** [2c 5s Qh] [5d] 2 outs: 2 deuces

[JSmith2007]

Hand #1 flop - You cannot assume you have six outs there, being fives and sevens. Most likely if you're in the hand with action, someone is going to have a king or jack. That is why I initially said I'd need to see betting action and/or reads to see if X is really an out.

Hand #3 turn - Why do you go from 5 to 2? Is two pair (an 8) no good now? Why did you get this conclusion? I would say you're 5 outs stay the same from flop to turn here.

Hand #4 turn - 5 to 2 outs again. If you think your opponent has a 5, you're drawing dead to no outs, no matter the card. If you think he has a queen, then you have 5 outs - 2 2's and 3 kings. I don't see why you would adjust to 2 deuces, because a deuce wouldn't help you in anyway really unless you thought he had a queen. If he has a queen, then a king would be fine.

[srodgers1981]

JSmith2007
Thanks for responding.. I’ll try to show you my reasoning and if I’m wrong somewhere please let me know what the correct answer should be. I’m looking at COUNTING OUTS as to what cards would make my hand the “best hand”. If I’m going about this all the wrong way

Remember this exercise is just to learn how to COUNT OUTS… assume everyone just limps for the below mentioned hands…

[5h 7s]
*** FLOP *** [Kd 3h Jh] six outs: 3 fives 3 sevens The best hand I can make so far is Trip 5’s/7’s… hence 6 outs
*** TURN *** [Kd 3h Jh] [9h] 9 outs: but I don’t believe 5 high flush will hold up. With four hearts out, the best hand I can make is 5 high flush

[Ad 2c]
*** FLOP *** [Jc Ks Kh] 3 outs: 3 aces I have an OVERCARD so the best hand I can make is Trip A’s… hence 3 outs.
*** TURN *** [Jc Ks Kh] [As] two outs: 2 aces. The best hand I can make here is A’s full… hence 2 outs

[Jc 8d]
*** FLOP *** [6c Jd Kh] 5 outs: 2 jacks 3 eights. The best hand I can make is Trip J’s or Pair of 8’s… hence 5 outs
*** TURN *** [6c Jd Kh] [4h] 2 outs: 2 jacks… The best hand I can make is Trips J’s… hence two outs

[2h Ks]
*** FLOP *** [2c 5s Qh] 5 outs: 2 deuces 3 kings. The best hand I can make is Trip 2’s or Pair of K’s… hence 5 outs
*** TURN *** [2c 5s Qh] [5d] 2 outs: 2 deuces. The best hand I can make is Trip 2’s, although I could catch a K on the River, so should TOTAL OUTS still be 5?

[SoCalRugger]

[ QUOTE ]
[5h 7s]
*** FLOP *** [Kd 3h Jh] six outs: 3 fives 3 sevens The best hand I can make so far is Trip 5’s/7’s… hence 6 outs

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you're thinking about outs the wrong way. An out should be a card that, if it falls, makes your hand the best hand. If a 5 or a 7 falls on the turn, it's still very unlikely that you have the best hand. You need to hit one of 6 cards on both the turn AND river to make the best hand. This doesn't count as having 6 outs on the flop. I'd consider it drawing nearly dead.

Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Kd Jh 3h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kc Ah 960 96.97 30 3.03 0 0.00 0.970
7s 5h 30 3.03 960 96.97 0 0.00 0.030

An example of having 6 outs is if you hold AK on a T52 flop, and you think your opponent has JT. There, any ace or king makes your hand the best, so you have 6 outs - a 25% chance to win if you were to go all-in of the flop.

Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 5s Td 2h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Kc 247 24.95 743 75.05 0 0.00 0.249
Ts Jh 743 75.05 247 24.95 0 0.00 0.751

[xHornblower]

Could someone tell me what the odds are for turning two-pair on the flop with any two cards (pp not included). Ive tried to calculate but ends up with numbers indicating poorer odds than pp to 3 of a kind? This cannot be the case, can it?

[srodgers1981]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[5h 7s]
*** FLOP *** [Kd 3h Jh] six outs: 3 fives 3 sevens The best hand I can make so far is Trip 5’s/7’s… hence 6 outs


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I think you're thinking about outs the wrong way. An out should be a card that, if it falls, makes your hand the best hand. If a 5 or a 7 falls on the turn, it's still very unlikely that you have the best hand. You need to hit one of 6 cards on both the turn AND river to make the best hand. This doesn't count as having 6 outs on the flop. I'd consider it drawing nearly dead.

I agree that the hand is drawing dead, the only way that it could win would be to catch the remaining 5's/7's.. but how would you count the outs?... or does counting outs only apply to hands that you would normally play?

If I the hand is Kc9s.... now you count your outs?

I know I'm doing something wrong, but don't know what it is... I'm still learning...

Thanks for the reply....

[Route66]

[ QUOTE ]
Could someone tell me what the odds are for turning two-pair on the flop with any two cards (pp not included). Ive tried to calculate but ends up with numbers indicating poorer odds than pp to 3 of a kind? This cannot be the case, can it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Odds of flopping 2 pair when you have 2 unpaired cards is close to 50 to 1. Odds of flopping a set (3 of a kind when you have a pocket pair) is approximately 7.5 to 1.