Queens getting squeezed after A-high flop?

[chesspain]

Online 3-6...UTG seems like a basic, weak ABC player.
UTG+1 is a lagtard who will try to steal pots, especially with position. HJ is a "show-me" idiot--after having his AQ three-bet PF, he bet/called all three post-flop streets after flopping an ace.
Preflop: chesspain is LP w/Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG limps, UTG+1 raises, 2 folds, chesspain reraises, HJ coldcalls three, 2 folds, SB coldcalls 8/9, 1 fold, UTG calls, UTG+1 caps, everyone calls.

Flop: (20sb) 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players).
Everyone checks!?

Turn: (10BB) 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 folds, chesspain...?

1) Folds?
2) Calls?
3) Raises, with the plan of putting no more money into this pot?
4) Raises, with the realization that by doing so the pot will be so bloated he may have to call a single bet on the river?

[Tugg]

I don't like the flop check.Especially w/o the Qh, you have only 1 or 2 outs if behind and are giving flush draws a free card. Betting will probably narrow your field to A's and flush draws and make your turn decision easier. As played I would fold. I only play live, but a weak abc player wouldn't usually semi bluff a flush draw into so many people. He could have a 9, but it seems more like Ax, and its going to cost you at least 2 BBs to find out

[Yepitis]

I go with 3).

He may be betting a weak Ace but more in likely he is betting bottom or middle pair because nobody has shown any strength. Could also be on a flush draw to which you are still ahead. I say a raise here gets you a free showdown.

What do you do if he reraises the turn?

[Mitke]

* grunch *

Well that's some interesting "action" on the flop.

The weak UTG is betting out after flop was checked around. Could be a set or A9s/A7s that tried to go for a c/r on the flop - pretty reasonable IMO in a preflop-capped pot and the capper to his immediate left.

I think UTG is usually betting here for value. Would a weak ABC player take a stab at this pot with less than A?

HJ probably does not have an ace. If he was willing to bang his head to a raise three times with AQ he's likely to bet an ace on the flop when it is checked to him in position.

That said, we really don't know much about the hand strengh of both SB and HJ, both cold-called and have shown no strength on flop or turn.

We could raise and hope that loses both HJ and SB. However, there's only one overcard which we are worried about. FD or OESD are not folding in any case. 98 or similar could fold but that is not a very likely holding for a 3-bet cold-call preflop. Smaller pocket pairs we are not worried aboout and are probably folding anyway, as just might KK. So we can't raise for protection.

We could raise to possibly to get UTG to fold an AJ-AT or A8 -type hand - but is he that weak? On the other hand, we'd have an easy fold to a 3-bet from UTG, that's for sure or could get to showdown with the raise as he's timid.

I don't think we are ahead of UTG often enough nor can we lose the draws that most worry us anyway by raising so I don't raise.

There is a small chance UTG is taking a stab at the pot and it is probable he won't lead on the river with a hand we beat if we and one or two villains call on turn (but in online we cannot be sure?). He might be even timid enough to not bet on the river with a weak ace and give us a free showdown.

2) and doesn't overcall on the river but does crying-call in the big pot.

(Weird line usually = monster / air)

[chesspain]

UGH...Please note that UTG is the lagtard...UTG+1, who was the PF raiser, is the weak ABC player...

Sorry for the misinformation.

[Tugg]

I that case I might go with plan 3.Looks like you slow played AA and will probably get you HU against UTG.

[Mitke]

[ QUOTE ]
UGH...Please note that UTG is the lagtard...UTG+1, who was the PF raiser, is the weak ABC player...

Sorry for the misinformation.

[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Well, I think that thought process still helped me.

Isolating LAGtards is usually a good line post-flop in big pots. Raising could get us a fold from a weak ace (SB), HJ would probably have bet even a weak ace in position on the flop.


4) Can't fold this big pot vs this villain.

[James.]

yeah, i would raise the turn. i don't want JT getting a cheap ride trying to outdraw us in this big pot. they can't all have pp's and if we get 3bet we are usually toast(unless it's UTG that 3bets).

as played, i like your flop action. first thougth was "bet the flop please", but after looking more closely at your reads and the action i can see why you didn't.

regardless of what they hold, anyone with as little as 2 outs is correct to call a small bet. some decent chunk of the time you're stepping right into a checkraise from UTG( or UTG1) and given a)UTG is a retard and b)the flush draw is out you really don't know for sure a better hand is c/r you. HJ is looks like a worse pp. sb might have a KQ/QJ/JT-type hand or pp. all of these hands are peeling if you bet.

on the other hand, checking the flop is going to enable you to maximize the value of your position and see how the action unfolds before you make a decision. also, because people get out of line less often on the big streets you should solicit more honest reactions on the turn.

[pa1ne]

i would bet the flop not allowing anyone to see a free card. If i am raised i will call down and fold unimproved.

The way you played it though i call the turn and fold to a raise.

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the flop check.Especially w/o the Qh, you have only 1 or 2 outs if behind and are giving flush draws a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

-You have odds to call a c/r if both of your set outs are good
-Giving flush draws a free card really isn't that big a deal since they never fold anyway
-An A high flop is especially likely to hit someone
-There is a non-negligible chance you get bluff c/r'ed by the LAG and now have to pay 3BB to show down on this board.

Betting this flop is just silly. I also don't like a turn raise (though I dislike it less); there's only one player left who has given no indication whatsoever that his hand is even relevant to the board, and it opens us up to a 3bet that we really won't know how to react to. If UTG was a straightforward player and we could fold to all future aggression I could dig raise/freeshowdown.

EDIT: oops, HJ is still in the hand. Raising looks a lot better, especially since if SB or HJ had an a they would have probably bet by now.