Interesting hand?

[Sp00n]

Razz ($3/$6), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $1 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.33 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in
Seat 4: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (2.67 SB)

Seat 3: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls

5th Street - (3.33 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 7: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds

6th Street - (5.33 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

River - (7.33 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___checks
Seat 6: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___checks

Total pot: (7.33 BB - $44)

What is your normal plan on 3rd?

[Sp00n]

I should just fold

[Sp00n]

This hand is not interesting

[RustyBrooks]

876 goes in the muck for me 100% of the time here first to act. Many 87s do. I might make an exception if I have a very low kicker and it's face up, but then I'm completing, not limping. Maybe I could get away with limping if I ever limped anything first in, but I don't, except shorthanded.

Your hand is likely not best on 4th. I do like the opponents you play against though, release and wait for a better spot.

[Andy B]

Seems to me that with four better door cards yet to act, third is a pretty easy fold.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
This hand is not interesting

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is, glad you posted it. It's the kind of hand new players need to see and read the responses to and a lot of them don't post. It's a hand it's good for micro players to read so we know sometimes much better players make the same mistakes we do so we don't feel so bad.

For the new-to-Razz player: this is not a three card 8. This is a steal hand and then you hope the bring-in doesn't have A2J.

[blumpkin]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I could get away with limping if I ever limped anything first in, but I don't, except shorthanded.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds backwards...you should (possibly) be limping some in a full game, but never shorthanded.

[roggles]

[ QUOTE ]

For the new-to-Razz player: this is not a three card 8. This is a steal hand and then you hope the bring-in doesn't have A2J.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is simply not right. 678 is way the favorite over A2J. I guess I might call with A2T so that people won't steal from me, but really, if I raise with a marginal hand I love a call from A2J

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
This is simply not right. 678 is way the favorite over A2J. I guess I might call with A2T so that people won't steal from me, but really, if I raise with a marginal hand I love a call from A2J

[/ QUOTE ]It's about 2-1 which means the bring-in always has the odds to call when you are the sole raiser. And those are simulator odds - in real play you are about even, I'd guess.

678 is a steal hand.

[RustyBrooks]

You're kind of abusing simulator stats there. If you hold A2J and you are getting 2:1 to call on the flop, it's only worth it if calling will put you all in. The future bets in the hand mean that your *effective* pot odds will be very close to 1:1.

In order to call on 3rd, you need to feel that you have the best hand, or close to it, OR you are getting good enough *immediate* pot odds to warrant out-flopping your opponent, which happens about 1 in 5 times. And with A2J it's even less likely because not only will you need a low card to outflop 678, he'll need to catch something J or higher.

678 is not a steal hand, it's perfectly legitimate hand to play, in later position, against either some mediocre up cards or players that you're better than. It's *NOT* good to play it in early position, against hands of unknown strength, with the possibility that it'll get raised behind you. It's a trap hand, like AT in NLHE, certainly if you raise AT on the button you are not stealing, more like semi-bluffing with possibly the best hand. But limping with AT under the gun is a recipe for disaster.

678 sucks bad here because there are FOUR wheel cards yet to act, all your pair cards are live, and 4 of your wheel outs are gone, and you're drawing to the worst possible 8 or 9